Mutinies and the Yearning to Return

[kenny]

Jim I thought I would stary a new threat.We have both mentioned this so called fairy Tale that one of Alexanders downfalls. Were his troops been fed up wanting to get home and all that C**p.I thint The India cas was well founded monsoons and hardships. Anyone with half a brain wouldnd want any more of that.But Back at Babylon wrm fiested and refreshed. I wager these boys were ready to go.Its what they were born and trained for.Imagine a Macedonian. Seeing to the Goats a little farming and taking it easy. They would soon be borred.And as you say following Alexander mostly they stayed in arms for one cause or another.Once prepaired and tooled up. Im sure the speaches from Alexander would stir these boys for the rest of the world. Lets face it Arabia and western Europe would be reasonably comfortable. No desserts.No Snakes and no Monsoons. If Antipater or the Greeks got in his way. We know Alexander shied away from no challenge. With his money Power and extra soldiers Antipater he would squash like a fly.Kenny

[jan]

I will use your tactic. Hail Kenny, you forgot the Gedrosian desert trip and the later celebration party when they really relaxed and refreshened themselves.Can you imagine yourself as an Alexander? Do you really believe that Alexander actually taunted his men into climbing mountains, so steep and high that his enemies jeered Alexander that he would have to fly to reach them? He offered them money if they could accomplish this, and according to Michael Woods, if memory serves me correctly, there is evidence to suggest that they truly did accomplish that task. But some would say that it is old soldier's sitting around, chewing the fat, bragging about the days when they rode with King Alexander...is that story true or false? Each and every tale told by Arrian, Curtius, and others...are they just men's braggadocia? Or real? Nobody knows for sure, do they?I challenge you!

[jan]

I will use your tactic. Hail Kenny, you forgot the Gedrosian desert trip and the later celebration party when they really relaxed and refreshened themselves.Can you imagine yourself as an Alexander? Do you really believe that Alexander actually taunted his men into climbing mountains, so steep and high that his enemies jeered Alexander that he would have to fly to reach them? He offered them money if they could accomplish this, and according to Michael Woods, if memory serves me correctly, there is evidence to suggest that they truly did accomplish that task. But some would say that it is old soldier's sitting around, chewing the fat, bragging about the days when they rode with King Alexander...is that story true or false? Each and every tale told by Arrian, Curtius, and others...are they just men's braggadocia? Or real? Nobody knows for sure, do they?I challenge you!

[Jim]

"Imagine a Macedonian. Seeing to the Goats a little farming and taking it easy. They would soon be borred."This is a funny thought. Reminds me of an ad airing in the states showing out of work medieval marauders trying to find work in a modern civilized environment. I can't imagine a shephards hook on a sarissa! Seriously though the idea that the eastern mutiny occured because the soldiers wanted to go home loses credibility in the aftermath of the Triparadaisos settlement. Antipater took the kings and went home but left most of what had been Perdiccas' army under Antigonus to continue the war against Eumenes, Alcetas and the other condemned Anatolian commanders. Now the question that comes to my mind is if these rank and file vetrans were brave enough to match will power with Alexander why not such relative light weights as Antipater and Antigonus? Recall that just recently these vetrans had withstood orders from Perdiccas necessitating his assassination by Seleucus, Peithon and others and had also come near to killing Antipater when he arrived at Triparadaisos because it seemed he was unwilling to give them back pay. If it was in their heart to return home I don't think there was anyone at that time to stop them. What saved Antipater was the timely intercession of Antigonus and Seleucus convincing them, not that they would be able to return home, but that Antipater would make good on their pay if they would permit him enough time to get some money from Susa.

[Jim]

"Imagine a Macedonian. Seeing to the Goats a little farming and taking it easy. They would soon be borred."This is a funny thought. Reminds me of an ad airing in the states showing out of work medieval marauders trying to find work in a modern civilized environment. I can't imagine a shephards hook on a sarissa! Seriously though the idea that the eastern mutiny occured because the soldiers wanted to go home loses credibility in the aftermath of the Triparadaisos settlement. Antipater took the kings and went home but left most of what had been Perdiccas' army under Antigonus to continue the war against Eumenes, Alcetas and the other condemned Anatolian commanders. Now the question that comes to my mind is if these rank and file vetrans were brave enough to match will power with Alexander why not such relative light weights as Antipater and Antigonus? Recall that just recently these vetrans had withstood orders from Perdiccas necessitating his assassination by Seleucus, Peithon and others and had also come near to killing Antipater when he arrived at Triparadaisos because it seemed he was unwilling to give them back pay. If it was in their heart to return home I don't think there was anyone at that time to stop them. What saved Antipater was the timely intercession of Antigonus and Seleucus convincing them, not that they would be able to return home, but that Antipater would make good on their pay if they would permit him enough time to get some money from Susa.

[jan]

Kenny, the last e-mail I sent you was returned to me, but I will try again. Hope I make it!

[jan]

Kenny, the last e-mail I sent you was returned to me, but I will try again. Hope I make it!

[Paralus]

Yes Kenny, too much can be made of this desire to return to Macedon. So too can too little. I've little belief that the Empire's marshals held any such thoughts. Macedonia would be too small and austere for their tastes. Ptolemy is GÇô again GÇô an outstanding example. He was most content to be left alone in Egypt. And as Jim has mentioned elsewhere, his shaky alliance with the disliked Perdiccas secured him that (until Perdiccas marched on him and was summarily executed by his officers GÇô Seleucas among them).There were significant numbers who did wish a return though. Part of the reforms of the Macedonian state under Philip included the setting up of the "Macedones" as feudal overlords. The army veterans, as part of their paying out, will have received "estates". Not huge to sure, but something. Now, whether this latafundia was to be found in Macedonia or Asia, that is the question and possibly a reason Antipater did not necessarily want another 10,000 knocking on his door just yet.Often too much is made of the Macedonian love and loyalty towards Alexander. It is true that they (according to the sources) appeared aghast at the prospect of his death in Babylon. The same in India. They did though have much reason to dislike him (India, Gedrosia, the enforced weddings and the forced demobbing in favour of Persian "successors") and were absolutely appalled at the "Orientalising" policies being foisted upon them by the increasingly pseudo-Persian despot (displaying not a little megalomania and paranoia) cavorting as their Macedonian King.And it is true that for the greater part, they stayed on in Asia. This due to the fact that they needed to draw pay from somewhere and in the age of the Diodochoi, an experienced phalangite or cavalry soldier was guaranteed employment and pay from the richest treasuries in the ancient world. That is also not to forget playing a part in the bigger game of who wins all post Alexander. A game played shrewdly by Ptolemy (settle for what you know you can control) and with "realpolitik" by Monophthalmos who GÇô as I said on the other thread GÇô went within an ace of securing the prize. Had Demetrius Poliorcetes not charged off and left Antigonus' phalanx exposed when on the point of victory, there was only Ptolemy left outside of Macedonia to contend with.

[Paralus]

Yes Kenny, too much can be made of this desire to return to Macedon. So too can too little. I've little belief that the Empire's marshals held any such thoughts. Macedonia would be too small and austere for their tastes. Ptolemy is GÇô again GÇô an outstanding example. He was most content to be left alone in Egypt. And as Jim has mentioned elsewhere, his shaky alliance with the disliked Perdiccas secured him that (until Perdiccas marched on him and was summarily executed by his officers GÇô Seleucas among them).There were significant numbers who did wish a return though. Part of the reforms of the Macedonian state under Philip included the setting up of the "Macedones" as feudal overlords. The army veterans, as part of their paying out, will have received "estates". Not huge to sure, but something. Now, whether this latafundia was to be found in Macedonia or Asia, that is the question and possibly a reason Antipater did not necessarily want another 10,000 knocking on his door just yet.Often too much is made of the Macedonian love and loyalty towards Alexander. It is true that they (according to the sources) appeared aghast at the prospect of his death in Babylon. The same in India. They did though have much reason to dislike him (India, Gedrosia, the enforced weddings and the forced demobbing in favour of Persian "successors") and were absolutely appalled at the "Orientalising" policies being foisted upon them by the increasingly pseudo-Persian despot (displaying not a little megalomania and paranoia) cavorting as their Macedonian King.And it is true that for the greater part, they stayed on in Asia. This due to the fact that they needed to draw pay from somewhere and in the age of the Diodochoi, an experienced phalangite or cavalry soldier was guaranteed employment and pay from the richest treasuries in the ancient world. That is also not to forget playing a part in the bigger game of who wins all post Alexander. A game played shrewdly by Ptolemy (settle for what you know you can control) and with "realpolitik" by Monophthalmos who GÇô as I said on the other thread GÇô went within an ace of securing the prize. Had Demetrius Poliorcetes not charged off and left Antigonus' phalanx exposed when on the point of victory, there was only Ptolemy left outside of Macedonia to contend with.

[kenny]

Jan my E mails got messed up. I tried sending the pictures to you through this link. Let me know If you got them.Kenny

[kenny]

Jan my E mails got messed up. I tried sending the pictures to you through this link. Let me know If you got them.Kenny

[kenny]

Michael HailIm in total agreeance In india it was a Mutiny. It must have been horroble hell on earth No disrespect to India. 30 day monsoon would drive me nuts alone. Thene we go from Snow in the Hindu Cush. These guys were not equiped for arsctic exploration.To be totally honest my self Id have dropped off long before.And theye were not really getting any sort of open field battle satisfaction.I still Believe the Makran was a case. Because it was there theory and somebody telling Alexander couldnt do it. Only a maniac would seriously take his army through a dezzert to punish or indeed kill them all.But the Second Mutiny was more of a sqauble. Throwing a few insults and the Macedonians egos been ignored. Once it settled they were delighted tears in there ayes and back as Alexanders boys even though there were persian boys. In time Im sure they would have adapted.In all armies and even comminities there is predudice. But throughout Empires there were mostly values foreign contingents. Macedonians had a lot of very trusted Thracian Cavalry who were basic pocket lining boys.Even in the British army we have people like the GUerkas from Asia and the Equal to any of our own grown forces.I say with time generations and Alexander with the idealist things could have changed. His empire and New World Order was killed whilst still in the womb.Kenny

[kenny]

Michael HailIm in total agreeance In india it was a Mutiny. It must have been horroble hell on earth No disrespect to India. 30 day monsoon would drive me nuts alone. Thene we go from Snow in the Hindu Cush. These guys were not equiped for arsctic exploration.To be totally honest my self Id have dropped off long before.And theye were not really getting any sort of open field battle satisfaction.I still Believe the Makran was a case. Because it was there theory and somebody telling Alexander couldnt do it. Only a maniac would seriously take his army through a dezzert to punish or indeed kill them all.But the Second Mutiny was more of a sqauble. Throwing a few insults and the Macedonians egos been ignored. Once it settled they were delighted tears in there ayes and back as Alexanders boys even though there were persian boys. In time Im sure they would have adapted.In all armies and even comminities there is predudice. But throughout Empires there were mostly values foreign contingents. Macedonians had a lot of very trusted Thracian Cavalry who were basic pocket lining boys.Even in the British army we have people like the GUerkas from Asia and the Equal to any of our own grown forces.I say with time generations and Alexander with the idealist things could have changed. His empire and New World Order was killed whilst still in the womb.Kenny

[kenny]

THe Macedonians and Greeks in the same old way.I cant get away from this Idea Antipater having the balls to take against Alexander.THe Greco Macedonia armies drawn up in the same old way. Phalanx and Cavalry Wings.Alexander turns up with variation probably a brand new Battle Plan the Macedonians wouldnt know or some tactics they never even heard about.Does Antipater war cry and charge or hold to see what the score is. Is Cassander in the front line ready forbattle or Scooping the Poison from the Horses shoe.As son as Alexander and a massive force arrived got into formation. He would indeed offer terms. The Greeks as usual would hold back be late .So Antipater would only have his armies.Antipater would have 2 choices accept Alexanders terms or be anhialated. Thebes Just one more time.Kenny

[kenny]

THe Macedonians and Greeks in the same old way.I cant get away from this Idea Antipater having the balls to take against Alexander.THe Greco Macedonia armies drawn up in the same old way. Phalanx and Cavalry Wings.Alexander turns up with variation probably a brand new Battle Plan the Macedonians wouldnt know or some tactics they never even heard about.Does Antipater war cry and charge or hold to see what the score is. Is Cassander in the front line ready forbattle or Scooping the Poison from the Horses shoe.As son as Alexander and a massive force arrived got into formation. He would indeed offer terms. The Greeks as usual would hold back be late .So Antipater would only have his armies.Antipater would have 2 choices accept Alexanders terms or be anhialated. Thebes Just one more time.Kenny