Alexander and suicide

[kenny]

Folks Hi.I have read up many books lately and a new idea passed my mind. First I thought stupid then not really.Through some comentary it has been said in the movie when aLexander has his last drink he was aware of been poisoned.At first I thought no but upon thinking it dont sound so crazy.just maybe by the time of his end he realised how against his goals dreams and thoughts of one peoples his generals people etc were against him. Maybe he fell on his own sword as the Romans say.We all know how greedy and self centred his so called loyal comrades and companions were. They were all happy when fighting and gaining land and riches for them selves and we know how they hated the idea of getting in to bed with the Persians as the saying goes and sharing there world as equals.Maybe by the time of his end Alexander realised just how alone he was in his ambitions and how hopeless it was. Maybe he realised he couldnt have what his goal was.Julius Caesar knew he couldnt have what he wanted in Rome yet he was the most powerful man in Rome yet he still went to the forum to commit suicide because he knew he was beaten.Alexander The Great as we know was never beaten. But maybe in his own head he realised in this matter he couldnt win and eventually these people would take him out. So indeed I dont at all think its such a silly idea he purpopsely took poison.RegardsKenny

[ruthaki]

A provocative and interesting thought. And by the way, Kenny, it's nice to see you back.

[kenny]

As An After thoughtIf Alexander did just jump on his sword. Then maybe theres some logic in what could have been his last words with irony.When Asked to whome he leaves his empire. Maybe Alexander thoroughly understood he would have the last laugh beyond the grave. He knew by experience that the Macedonians were not unlike the Greeks in there biased and racist attitudes and on his beath bed instigated a war that would in the long run cause the ultimate down fall of those who couldnt understand his vision for the future.There fore he said to the strongest and thought I ain leaving it to no one. You can all fight and kill each other for it which they eventually did. And the final iorony over thousands of years is that the Macedonians are now back to as they were before Philip brought them down from the mouynbtains and made them world rulers.Now they are nothing but a waring third world balkhan republic left to basque in the glories that were Philip and Alexander.HJad they and the Greeks been behind these 2 kings lock stock and barrel then I am more than sure the empire could have had the unity and above all the strengthy to remain and go beyond Rome with the resourses and money that Macedonia had at the hiegth of its power I really dont see any way Rome could over run them.RegardsKenny

[stavros]

Now they are nothing but a waring third world balkhan republic left to basque in the glories that were Philip and Alexander. i think your confused, big time. you should slow down when you type. Are you referring to fyrom?fyrom is in no way connected to the ancient greek world. i think its time you realised that, i think even the people of fyrom have realised that themselves??? trying to steal an identity that doesnt belong to them.modern day Goran Iliovski is not related to the ancient Megas Alexandros, king of Ancient Macedonia. Ancient Macedonians were greeks, even if they were not greek they surely wanted to be Ellines(Greeks). these posts put me off this website, completely?

[Efstathios]

The Macedonian debate is strictly prohibited from this forum.As far as i am concerned and the rest of the historians' community there is no such issue,as the origins of Fyrom and the slavs is well known.But this is an "Alexander the Great's" forum and such debates,even if they are of no historical value,do not belong here. I am deeply dissapointed though with the fact that many people consider "fyrom,aka Skopia" as the successor to Macedonia,as mentioned in a previous post,just because there is a small country that demands to be called by this name.It is now very clear how history can be altered and Slavs can be called descentents of Macedonians,Turks can be called descentents of Persians(that is what they teach in schools in turky),and e.t.c

[kenny]

my Post was not meant to upset.I was not getting into no Greco,Macedonian debate.All that is clear to m e Is that the region today has no real relevence to Alexanders country.Alexander was the king of what was then Macedonia. It is now totally different. One part is the Fyrom part that is a modern day no disrespect but relative third world state with problems with borders and refugees fleeing for better lifes.Another part is now called Halkidiki Northern greece and I have no idea what the other part is.All I can say stavros is that at the time it was a whole and ruled by Alexander etc.Now its in pieces and peoples seem to argue the toss over whats Greek,What is Macedonian and I really aint bothered about modern day politics of the region I only stated in my post what had become of the what was once Alexanders Macedonian State.I didnt put this post in to wind greeks up it is all connectede with my original post that Alexander may have fallen on his sword deliberately, Yet some people get all nationaliostic and upset.Take the post in the way it was meant and not as a slur. On Greece Fyrom or anybody.regardsKenny

[Efstathios]

Macedonia was an area covering from mount Olympus up to where today Skopia is,and including a part of Bulgaria ,and in the east the borders were up to the black sea.That at the time of Philip's and Alexander's conquests.That was the aera that we call Macedonia.Today half of this area belongs to Bulgaria,Skopia and Albania,and the other half to greece.But the populations that inhabbit the northen parts have nothing to do with the ancient macedonians or greeks,as over the years the slavs moved there along with germans romanians italians,hungarians and turks.The only part that we could say that it is inhabbited by Macedonians is the greek part.
But i wont go into an analysis of wheter today greeks living in macedonia are descentents of the ancient ones,as it is a very big discussion. Skopia is not exactly a third world country.Yes there is poverty,but it is not like Soudan or Ethiopia.But that depends on how you define "third world countries".Bulgaria,Yugoslavia and these balcan countries were under the influence of Russia,the eastern block.That is why they have a very low "level of economy and life conditions".The greek part though (halkidiki,thrace,thessaloniki,mount olympus,edessa,e.t.c) is totally different.Greece is the only country in the Balcans that "followed" the western block and way of life(America),thus there is no comparisson. Macedonia as we knew it in the ancient times siezed to exist from the time of the roman empire.Of course the populations were not harmed neither were the cultures e.t.c but Macedonia was no longer like it was in ALexander's time.
But,even when the romans captured Greece including Macedonia ,it is very interesting that actually they incorporated the greek way of life into their own.They copied the gods,the architecture (that was already known to them from the greek cities in italy),theatre and many other things.And they left greece almost unharmed,like a "twin" of rome.That is why later the capital of the roman empire was transfered to greece(in Byzantium near Troy),and the empire was seperated into the west and the east.
So we could say that somehow Macedonia survived and it was actually called the eastern roman empire..But of course many things were altered,and especially when Christianity became the official religion of the empire.After so many years even the roman empire changed form,it became the Byzantine empire,so everything changes.That's what happened with the Macedonian empire.It didnt actually decay

[Efstathios]

And to answer to your original post. Alexander could not have ended his life by himself because his pothos and his dream as not all about reaching the ocean.It went beyond that.Alexander was still young and had the time to do whatever he dreamed of.He planned to invade Arabia and he had plans in his mind of invading western europe too and then who knows where else.
So I dont think that he could have taken his own life.Up to the moment he died the internal controversions were not that great.They started after his death for his succession.And i do not think that he was scared by some people that plotted against him.That happened in the past too.Nothing was able to scare him.And he knew the way to manage these things.

[kenny]

Efts HailYour statement That Macedonian disension at Alexanders time of death been small is untrue.The Macedonial Hierarchy was rife with disension and unease at Alexanders ambition His orientalisation and the all inclusive policy of his Empire.We are aware of at least 2 conspiracies against Alexander and Clietus was basically airing the opinions of those in Alexanders ranks who were a little more astute than to shout there mouths off.Indeed Alexander had the ghusto and ambition and even as you said made plans for other Conquests. But the bottom line is he was basically alone in his ambition.. The Macedonians were lets say peeved off with sharing and cause a brotherhood with conquered people who they were educated by Aristotle into thinking they were unworthy.Indeed I totally agree Alexander could force the issue by force of will and command but lets be realistic he would have been assasinated.He could have carried on his purges of Execution of those who had abused there positions and forced his will on his people. but was that Alexanders way to turn his followers into people forced into his will then hating him.I am not at all saying he did kill himself but I do say the possibility aint such a crazy notion.He could have conquered and created the greatest longest lasting empire ever. If he had the following and belief of those that were with him.. He hadnt and just maybe he thought his idea doomed and a failure. Indeed such failure was not what Alexander would wish so maybe went before the snakes publicly humiliated him and brought him down.Kenny

[stavros]

"All that is clear to m e Is that the region today has no real relevence to Alexanders country"alexander never had a country? "Another part is now called Halkidiki Northern greece and I have no idea what the other part is."it is called Macedonia, Macedonia is a state in Greece. Halkidiki is a prefecture within Macedonia. There are another 13 prefectures within Macedonia. a total of 51 in greece all together. The other part you refer to is in modern day Bulgaria. I have an acient Greek coin founded in Bulgaria 2300 years ago of king Phillipas II. " What is Macedonian and I really aint bothered about modern day politics of the region I only stated in my post what had become of the what was once Alexanders Macedonian State."you aint bothered about modern day politics of the region yet you clearly identify that the 'waring balkan republic' is left to basque the glories of Phillip and Alexander??? If you aint bothered then why do you make such assumptions or yet opinions??? "Yet some people get all nationaliostic and upset"Ancient Macedonia needs to be protected. An identity cannot be stolen by a 'waring balkan republic' who have no connection with the ancient greek world. Next in line, this 'waring balkan nation' will lay claim to the Ancient Olympic Games as well. Maybe Socrates, Aristotle and Archimides of Scicily will all be blurred in history very shortly.Greeks around the world are very passionate about this thing you call a Greco/Macedonian debate and protecting history as it is. As far as im concerened the whole world has a lot to learn about the Ancient Greeks, modern greeks and modern propaganda. regardsStavros

[kenny]

Nothing Bloody Changes.Can it never be that people just stick to the topic of the original post without getting on thgis nationalist band wagon rubbish.I was talking about Alexander in the pretext he could have fallen on his sword. No one came back with any opinions othe than this Nationalist stuff.Nothing I guess changes and the rhetoric and discusion Is as bloody borring as ever full of bookworms and soarce adicts.Sorry Bucephalus Andrew the place festers with boredome.If only people answered and stuck to the questions posed it would be ok. Im interested in Alexander and dont give a rats nuts about the Grrek politics of today.

[amyntoros]

It might be that many members are simply unable to debate this topic Kenny. When a person commits suicide one often find's oneself with nothing but unanswered questions. . . Why did he do this? . . . Why didn't he confide in someone?. . . Why didn't we realize that he couldn't cope? . . . etc. However, on looking back through that person's life one can sometimes find emotional signs - and that's where there is the greatest pain for those left behind because they feel they might have intervened and prevented the death. However, there are also suicides that can never have been predicted. Alexander seized on life - his desire for achievement was greater than anyone else's in history. The only thing he couldn't do was bring Hephaistion back from the dead. Other than the effect of that tragic death, I don't see anything else that Alexander would have looked at in Babylon and thought was truly "hopeless." And even if he *had* thought so, consider that there are people who have lived and suffered through the most devastating circumstances and never thought about taking their own lives. Conversely, there are people who appear to have "had it all" and yet decided to end it. To consider the questions you raised we would have to discuss Alexander's personality in depth and not simply the events of his life - and who is there that can properly psychoanalyze Alexander at this point, even if there was more literary evidence? That's why *I* haven't answered this thread previously. All I can do now is use my own assessment/opinion of Alexander and say, no, I don't think he "fell on his sword." If he ever had any kind of death wish, it would have been to die gloriously in battle, not ignominiously in bed. Best regards, Amyntoros - one of those bookworms and source addicts!

[xxx]

But one can tempt the fates by not taking care of oneself properly - unconscious suicide if you will...or just plain worn out

[Efstathios]

"But one can tempt the fates by not taking care of oneself properly - unconscious suicide if you will...or just plain worn out" That is not the case with Alexander.What was he supposed to do?kill all of his friends and anyone that he thought that plotted against him in order to prevent an assasination?
Anyway,Alexander probably died of a simple disease that he caught while they were passing by a swamp near Babylon.His body could not handle it,not with all the past wounds.
We are talking about a man that slept very little,had many wounds during his battles and some of them nearly killed him,and surely had an impact on his "biological defences".He caught a disease ,maybe a strong one ,and that was it.

On the other hand he could have been assasinated. But i doubt that he would drink some kind of poison and put himself in this kind of lasting pain.Do not forget that he was ill and suffered for days until he died.If he wanted to take his life he would have picked another way.And even if he didnt want for this incident to be seen as suicide,even then he wouldnt put himself to this torture for days. ------------------ Kenny, the fact that you do not care for todays' politics in the area does not mean that we should not correct a mistake that you did.It is not about being ethnicist,or nationalist e.t.c.It is just a mistake that needs to be corrected.And it is not about politics.It is about history mostly.

[stavros]

Efstathiosthe s**t i hear about Ancient Macedonia makes me sick to the stomach? Even enthusiasts choose to ignore the facts and continue supporting propaganda that is nothing but anti greek crap. The way things are going Ancient Macedonia will be anything but greek in the long term. There were greeks in Ancient Macedonia 400 years before Alex the Great. Lets face it who else was in the region at the time, no one. Illyrians, Thracians and neighbouring barbarians and of course Ellines, Hellenes (Greeks, in English). to aima mou vrazi otan akouo teties malakies. :)giaStavros