Aristotle and Callisthenes

[marcus]

Nick posed a question a short while ago about Plutarch's comment that Aristotle said that Callisthenes had great eloquence but was lacking in common sense. The question was basically whether Aristotle said this after Callisthenes was arrested/executed, which is how Nick had read the passage, or whether he had said it at some unspecified time, which is how I had read it.I finally got round to checking my edition of Plutarch's Life of Alexander last night (the Penguin Classics edition, trans. Ian Scott-Kilvert) and I have to say that it still reads to me as if Aristotle might have said it at any time.The problem is, my Greek is *nowhere near* good enough for me even to bother trying to see whether the original Greek is any clearer. So can anyone shed any light on this?All the bestMarcus

[nick]

Thanks, Marcus!Me to: I am very eager to have someone interpreting the orginal Greek text and come up with the right answer.Best regards -
Nick

[luc]

I'm not sure. However I do think that it was before. I think that might have been the only, or at least the number one reason Alexander had so much patience with him. I mean, a little before that it was already noticed that Alexander and Aristotle were having problems in their friendship, and Aristotle maintained much closer to Hephaistion apparently. Not that Alexander would have killed Aristotle, because I don't think he ever would want to, but Aristotle might have defended Callisthenes in order to defend himself as well; almost pardoning Callisthenes on the basis of insanity :0) it's how I see it. So I'd say it was before, to keep Alexander's patience in check for the sake of his dumbass nephew, and himself.

[John]

I think Aristotle said this after Callisthenes was arrested, but before he died.Alexander meant to keep Callisthenes under arrest until he could be tried in person with Aristotle, but Callisthenes somehow died while under arrest.I also think Alexander had suspicians about Aristotle. It has even been written that Aristotle cooked up the poison that killed Alexander, thinking it was kill or be killed.John

[yiannis]

I'd be glad to help with the translation but I don't have the book (not the original nor the translation in modern Greek!). In case someone has a link to an Internet sourse (either modern or ancient Greek) I'll probably be able to help. I tried searching myself but with no result.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/ ... tmlregards,
Yiannis

[marcus]

Nick,I think it might be time for me to re-learn Greek. I did it at school for a couple of years and then when I was at university I learned modern Greek for a year. But, of course, I have forgotten almost everything in the intervening time.So if Yiannis or another of our Greek Companions can help us out they might find many other such questions coming out of the woodwork!All the bestMarcusPS: We've booked our flights to Egypt for April - just trying to sort out the Siwa tour now - hurrah!

[agesilaos]

There is, of course, a third possibility ; that Aristotle never said it. That some historian claimed he had in order to endow his own judgement on Kallisthenes with Aristotle's authority I don't doubt. Plutarch loves a good story and would happily retail it. Two points where is this remark minuted? Not in Aristotle's extant (nor given its personal nature would it be probable to occur in his lost writings)Maybe in a lost ecomiast biography, though I would have thought that the Byzantine pedants who scrawled marginalia would have noticed it. Secondly Arrian IV 10 i delivers the same verdict on Kallisthenes as his own, had he belived Aristotle to have passed comment he would surely have said so. He had read the vulgate sources as he occaisionally comments on them { including concerning Kallisthenes' death IV 14 }

[marcus]

Thanks, Karl. I have to admit that I didn't consider that possibility. I have always understood (but I can't give you chapter and verse of where I have got this from) that, if one of the ancient writers gave a specific source for a saying/quote etc. then we can be assured that it is so. However, thinking about your comment I wonder whether that is truly the case - after all, most modern academics appear to think that the famous encounter between Alexander and Diogenes didn't actually happen.My own view is that Aristotle must have said it, but even if he didn't, that there must have been a tradition that he did before Plutarch was writing so Plutarch at least wasn't making it up himself.Of course, this doesn't answer the original question which was whether Aristotle (is reputed to have) said it after Callisthenes' death or at some unspecified time (ie. might have been before *or* after). But it's another interesting point to debate!All the bestMarcus