Downfall:Movie

[jan]

I just saw Downfall last Monday. I am wondering at the amount of influence that Aristotle's teaching of the right to kill barbarians may have influenced Adolph Hitler in his aryan beliefs. There is an obvious attempt in this film to place him in the ranks of Napoleon, Caesar, and Genghis Khan, and fortunately, few allusions to Alexander. But I am concerned that there is a tie to Aristotle. Did anyone else notice?

[heinrich]

I don't know about a particular connection to Aristotle, but since the days of the art historian Winckelmann, many Germans have believed that their culture was closely related to Greek civilization. When Napoleon pretended to restore the Roman empire, the Germans compared themselves to the Greek city states, which was another way of saying that French culture was of lesser value. German architecture of the eighteenth, nineteenth, and early twentieth century often took its inspiration from Greece (cf. the Brandenburger Tor in Berlin). At least there was a climate in which Hitler could pick up a couple of lines by Aristotle.HM

[beausefaless]

Greetings HMI personally believe Hitler was more impressed with the Spartan dynasty and copied their military way of life, especially through the SS and the youths and your statement on the cf. the Brandenburg Tor in Berlin is spot on the button. He spoke of Sparta and how the Third Reich was going to surpass the five hundred & fifty year rule of Sparta (their prime) by at least a thousand years.Take care, Andrew

[ruthaki]

I haven't seen the movie yet but heard it was certainly worth viewing. Interesting replies to your questions.

[jan]

Hi Ruthaki, Yes, I agree, and I am so happy I asked. Thanks so much for those great contributions. I am really impressed with the comparisons to Sparta especially. Well, there are clues in the film that made me think of Aristotle and that is why I asked. I suspected as much.It makes it even more fascinating to consider now, and yes, I really enjoyed this film very much. It is a great exposure of the final days and hours of Hitler's life.

[heinrich]

I was wondering whether the movie "works" in English. In my opinion, Hitler must speak Bavarian, not English; I once saw an Italian western and really had to laugh.As I understand now, "Downfall" works in English; I am happy because I had an uneasy feeling about this.For other German movies that are worth seeing: try "Goodbye Lenin".HM

[jan]

I do not really like comparisons of Hitler to Alexander, but one is obvious. Future generations will study Hitler as much as today's scholars study Alexander. If anything can be gleaned from studying Alexander, it is that the sources are the only means that historians have of knowing anything about him at all; therefore, for that reason I believe that modern day biographers, film makers, and historians should provide as much accurate and correct information as possible. Again, it is late to do that since most of the participants are dead, but I am convinced that historians of the ongoing time period are more reliable than any works produced 400 years later.

[yiannis]

Plus, when we speak of future historians we must remember that history is being written by the winners. If Hitler had won the war, we'd be reading a much different "history" today...

[Dragonlord]

I think I can point out a big difference- Alexander believed in integration of races & cultures whilst Hitler is about the opposite.

[ancientlibrary]

Does "history is written by the winners" really apply to Alexander?

[jan]

Well, there is a sidenote to all of this. I watched History Channel's version of Hitler's end, as it included one of the author's of the script, a man by the name of Bernd. The documentation of Hitler's final hours included many more interviews than just the personal Secretary, FRAU Jung, Traudl Jung, I think her name is, but she was included in it also. There was also a bit of confusion about whether Hitler was really cremated or not, as a body was shown on film that looked like Hitler to me. So the movie goes with the cremation theory, making a scene about the amount of gasoline needed to do the actual burning, and so it appears that the bodies were burned. The movie also reveals the model that was displayed in the film also, exposing Hitler's plans for his new world, and showing the influence of previous conquerors of Europe and Asia.The documentary showed a model also but designated the city and the hopes for it. When I saw this in the movie, it made me think of Alexander and his plans for Alexandria. Noticeably, the movie made me think of Aristotle through the use of eyewear on HItler that is not seen in the documentary at all. It appears that Hitler does not wear frames in the documentary ever. Only a slight mention of Eva Braun is in the documentary, while the movie gives her a lot of attention, as well as the famous scene of the Goebel children being poisoned. The documentary makes you understand that the mother did not believe that the children would ever last in a post WWII environment, and I am inclined to believe her thinking is probably correct. Emotions ran high after the war.One should see Downfall and National Geographic's presentation of Alexander to understand any connection to Alexander. I had always thought that Paul Cartledge's hairstyle reminded me of my own on its worst days. I have a problem with my hair at times when it falls over my forehead like both Paul's and Adolph's so I noticed that immediately. The eyewear frames made me think of John O'Brien immediately, and I have already told him so. That was where I made the connection to Alexander. FYI.

[marcus]

Oh, OK ... I was just on the verge of asking, rather incredulously (if I'm honest) why on *earth* the lack of frames should make you think of Alexander. (Actually, Jan, I think you said Aristotle in your post, initially, which made me even more confused.) I have to congratulate you on always managing to find the most tenuous connections to Alexander! :-)ATBMarcus

[jan]

Hi Marcus, Yes, it is Aristotle that I said, and the reason for that is sort of secret as I should have just not said anything at all. The black round frames on Hitler in the movie reminded me of the same black frames on John O'Brien in the National Geographic special. I have already told him. He reminds me of Aristotle. His appearance in National Geographic looks just like some busts of Aristotle. And the flank of hair that drapes across Hitler's forehead reminds me not only of Paul Cartledge's but also of my own in some very bad shots when I was a teenager. So I got a kick out of the John Paul combo into Hitler in Downfall as I watched it in total amazement. The worst part is that the actor reminds me of my uncle, my favorite Uncle, but Hitler has a really straight nose instead of Tyrone Power nose as does the actor who portrays him. It just all was terribly interesting to see a documentary where Hitler has no eyewear at all. I guess He was framed!

[jan]

And while I am at a message where maybe only you are reading it, I want to comment on the movie Dune which was shown on Scifi Channel last night. I had been told that it was inspired by Alexander also, and I noticed a piece of dialogue that caught my attention. This line was in regard to the evil Baron Harkonnen and one of his select nephews who is a real killer, as the other one is sitting with his uncle while watching the other kill someone with gusto. He paraphrased the famous line of Alexander's when he complains about Philip's not leaving anything left for him and his friends to conquer. It made me think when I heard the nephew say yes, if he kills so many, there will be nobody left to rule. I could see how it is that Alexander's famous quotation could be made to look and sound really evil, if one does not understand the background for it. I believe that the scriptwriter is probably responsible for the line in the movie instead of Frank Herbert, but it was nonetheless interesting to think about. Some people really believe that Alexander is dire! This line in the movie gave me pause for a while, and I wonder at how many of Alexander's famous quotations are truly understood for the real intent at time of statement.

[jan]

I am posting this here this morning because I doubt that anyone will read it, and I want it on the record, but probably overlooked. I doubt that anyone thought that the reference to John O'Brien and Paul Cartledge had anything to do with John Paul, but the election of Joseph Ratzinger from Germany I believe is appropriate to conclude this post about Downfall. Germany probably deserves to have a man of peace be the antidote to the warrior leader Adolph Hitler. I did intend that the John O'Brien and Paul Cartledge comment hint at the Papacy and the element of Hitler whose name Fuhrer meant father the same as the word Pope means Father.It is a good day, and I am happy that the new Father of the Church is a German too.