Alexander as God

[Archaiophilo]

Has anyone become involved in the movement to resurrect the ancient Greek religion? If so can you fill me in on it. Also, why not begin a following for Alexander. I am not particularly intending to worship him, however, a movement to annually recognize and revere his ideals and life would be OK.

[ancientlibrary]

I propose we bring back slavery, infant
exposure, the moral imperative to hate one's
enemies, and empty, reciprocal interactions wih
the divine. Oh, and buggering children. That's
the sauce.

[marcus]

Ah, Tim, a man after my own heart! :-)I think you've taken a rather moderate view, though ...Marcus

[amyntoros]

Oh, absolutely, Tim. Couldn't agree more. I mean, since we got rid of paganism and the ways of the ancients the world has been such a better place, especially these last few centuries. We wouldn't dream of enslaving an entire race of people because they were barbarians from Africa who didn't know *our* god, had a different culture and a darker skin colour to boot. We'd never partake in imperialistic conquest or wars where god is on the side of the victor, after all, we just *love* all our enemies don't we? Who could imagine any country in this last century practising genocide on an entire race of people because they have their own culture and worship a god that predates ours? And why expose children when a little more than a hundred years ago we could feed them for a few short years and then send them to work in the mines and the factories so they could help support us. As for the last part of your post - well, those representatives of the church in Boston, New York, and other places - those supposed mediators between god and ourselves who are actually able to absolve us our sins - they were just guiding those young boys in the ways of relgion, now weren't they.And as for the person responsible for this thread. Does he actually imagine he can come to "our" forum, ask a question, and expect a respectful answer or a meaningful dialogue? Who does he think he is? Well, you really put him wise, didn't you? I don't expect he'll be back in a hurry. Let this be a warning to anyone else with such absurd ideas...

[kenny]

Ell I guess you can all hate me.Im with the guy who posted and, Linda your spot on again society today is no better than then and much worse is done in the name of Capitalism.How many Iraqis can we waste to get at the oil.Sarcasm.KennyAlexander had some great Ideals deont mock or compare to the Bushes blairs. POLL potts or the Hitlers.
Kenny

[xxx]

Brilliant Linda.Mankind like a leopard, doesn't change his spots too easily, even if he thinks he's a lion.Regards,Tre

[ancientlibrary]

My points were all things explicitly approved of
by pagan culture, not where ancient culture fell
short of its ideals. .Certainly naked conquest and enslavement
comes out the same to its victims whether or
not it meets the ideals of its civilization. But our
ideals have allowed our civilization to make
actual progress. Garrison, Douglas,
Chamberlin, Child and the other abolitionist
moved the nation by calling to mind non-ancient
ideals of universal love and equality. No ancient
could have effected the abolition of slavery
because they had no such ideals. Ancient slave
revolts, when successful, always ended by the
ex-slaves taking on new slaves. They weren't
against slavery; they just didn't want to be slaves
themselves.
.
Besides, Linda, you're a woman. Even at
Athens, you would have had no voice..I do think you have a point about monotheism
allowing violence against non co-religionists,
sometimes on an extreme scale. This is clearly
true.

[ancientlibrary]

Incidentally, another reason not to revive ancient
paganism is even simpler: it isn't true. .Obviously, you can side-step this by saying that
truth is subjective and religion largely
therapeutic, but ancients did not think these
things. They prayed to Zeus or Demeter or the
Dioscuri because they believed it worked, and
worked in direct physical ways. This is termed
"Do ut des" -- I give so that you may give.
Paganism without that belief would be shell.

[ancientlibrary]

One more:.Ancient paganism was not a list of gods, but a
set of beliefs about how the divine worked.
When Greek moved to other parts of the
Mediterranean they didn't argue with locals
about who's god was real. Instead, they either
decided a local god was really one of theirs, or
adopted the god as a new one. Sometimes they
split the difference, and came up with
Yahweh-Ammon-Zeus creations. .Idea experiment: Bring an ancient Greek back to
life. Then show him that his gods have not been
worshipped for 1500 years. Nobody has prayed
to them. Nobody has given them cult. Nobody's
prayers have been answered..Once this sunk in, I suspect this resurrected
Greek would *not* start praying to Zeus. Nor
would he have a "crisis of faith." Instead, he
would ask "What are the gods now? What is the
god of this place? What has this god done?
Show me how to pray, so that I might prosper."

[ancientlibrary]

One more:.Ancient paganism was not a list of gods, but a
set of beliefs about how the divine worked.
When Greek moved to other parts of the
Mediterranean they didn't argue with locals
about who's god was real. Instead, they either
decided a local god was really one of theirs, or
adopted the god as a new one. Sometimes they
split the difference, and came up with
Yahweh-Ammon-Zeus creations. .Idea experiment: Bring an ancient Greek back to
life. Then show him that his gods have not been
worshipped for 1500 years. Nobody has prayed
to them. Nobody has given them cult. Nobody's
prayers have been answered..Once this sunk in, I suspect this resurrected
Greek would *not* start praying to Zeus. Nor
would he have a "crisis of faith." Instead, he
would ask "What are the gods now? What is the
god of this place? What has this god done?
Show me how to pray, so that I might prosper."

[Archaiophilo]

OK let me please attempt this again. I guess what I really wanted to ask initially is whether we can begin an annual ceremony to honor Alexander and his ideals. Perhaps held in his birthplace or Alexandria. This could be a good way for those who feel deeply for his legacy to return something to him and keep his ideals alive.

[xxx]

That would depend on what you think his ideals were. In many respects he was way ahead of his time, even our own time. But you have to take the good with the bad too. Alexander has achieved eternal fame, which is what he wanted, and I think that is enough. Regards,Tre

[amyntoros]

Tim, you seem to think that I was advocating the return of worship of the ancient gods. Actually, I was being cynical in response to the seemingly contemptuous nature of your first post here. As we now have a serious discussion at hand, IGÇÖm more than happy to respond GÇô though we are way off-topic as regards Alexander and I apologize for the diversion to anyone else who may be reading this. (This thread will probably be pushed off the forum before the end of the day, so it's a moot point anyway.) :-)My initial reasoning was that all the advances of civilization and differing religions have not eliminated the baser aspects of human nature GÇô and, of course, never will. But moving on, yes, IGÇÖm aware of the status of women in Athens and of the practice of syncretism by the ancient Greeks GÇô you encapsulated Greek syncretism perfectly here, by the way. However, in comparing the religions of ancient times and those of today, there are still some similarities, and I certainly disagree with you if you are implying that no one today ever prayed because they GÇ£think it works and works in direct physical ways.GÇ¥ Not every believer intellectualizes their religion GÇô far from it. And I see no reason why the ancient beliefs should not be separated from the negative cultural aspects, though I acknowledge that it was an impossibility in those times in that their religion played a part of every waking minute of the day. That said, there *is* a small movement of people today who practise the religion of the Hellenes GÇô a thousand or two in Greece, fewer in the US, and smatterings in other countries around the globe. These people certainly donGÇÖt support slavery or the conquest of nations, and they *will* get really angry at the suggestion that they support pedophilia!. IGÇÖm not intending to debate one way or another about this movement; it isnGÇÖt my place and it would take us even further off-topic. IGÇÖm bringing this up for one reason only; because it is relative to the remarks that Archaiophilo made at the beginning of this thread. Best regards,Linda Ann

[kenny]

Linda HailI know entirely what you meant with your post,, As the arguement against it was the return of the bad things associated with it and the assumtion that the passing of centuries has made the world more civilised.In my opinion it has not and to be honest if we as people should have taken head from history then as a culture we are more ignorant for ignoring it and becoming worse.The arguments against slavery was one, Its still around even today in developed countries we get people working there nits off for peanuts,sweat shops in Asia no one in the west can say we are not responsible,,, Indeed we are corporate companies get there work done on the cheap by getting third world countries to employ very young kids to work all day making Nike trainers etc.There may not be the evident phisical brutality but there is as much oppresion through the common market and world trade. The internet is swamped with paedophiles plying there trade yet companies will not invest the money or resources to police this vile trade.Todays opresion and slaverey is caused on a widerscale by corporate greed and the worse thing about it today is we know its wrong see its wrong yet no one does anything about it.Compared to some of these massive companies Alexander and his world would be relatively tame.kenny

[Archaiophilo]

Amynotoros. Thanks for the defense and for reminding us how myopic and arrogant we can be in presuming our present ways of thinking are always the best.