Macedonian 'sign'.

[biekie]

Hello,Has anybody got a good print of the macedonian sign. If I'm correct it is in the shape of a circle with flowers in it.
I really need a good print of it. It doesn't matter if it's handdrawn. Just good.
Thnak you.

[yiannis]

Here's one:http://flagspot.net/flags/gr-maced.htmlhere's the original: http://www.macedonia.info/GALLERY/image ... casket.jpg

[jona]

Speaking about this, does anybody know what it is? I mean, is this a sun or a star, and what are the arguments?Jona

[yiannis]

Archaeologists are not definite if the sun was a symbol of the Macedonian kindgom in general, a symbol of Phillip's dynasty or merelly decorative. However, most agree that probably, it was the symbol of the dynasty.
8, 12 or 16-ray suns were used as decorative signs for centuries in ancient Greece but this particular design was never observed elsewhere.

[jona]

"8, 12 or 16-ray suns were used as decorative signs for centuries in ancient Greece but this particular design was never observed elsewhere."Thanks, that what's I noticed too. Yet, is there an art historical study on this subject?Jona

[jona]

"8, 12 or 16-ray suns were used as decorative signs for centuries in ancient Greece but this particular design was never observed elsewhere."Thanks, that what's I noticed too. Yet, is there an art historical study on this subject?Jona

[ruthaki]

I always believed it was a star. And the flower in the circle sounds like the acanthus design found on the gold caskets in the tombs.

[yiannis]

Hi Jona,Thanks, but you're overestimating my knowledge
I'm sure there must be such research but I'm not aware of it. This kind of research belongs in a library.
However you can see here more photos of the actual treasures that were found at the Vergina tombs. http://alexander.macedonia.culture.gr/2 ... a07.htmlIn the years to come we expect a steady flow of informatio on ancient Macedonia as more excavations are underway. Major one is at "Archontiko" in Pella district where 396 unlooted tombs have already been found.

[matz]

You are after a "rosette" which is in the center of the Macedonian flag. It was widely used in ancient times in various regions, and come in different looks. I'm not sure where and when it originated, but I'll try to find out. A search on the net would probably find you plenty of examples.

[matz]

As far as I am aware the statement:
"8, 12 or 16-ray suns were used as decorative signs for centuries in ancient Greece but this particular design was never observed elsewhere."
is incorrect twofold.1. The sun symbol has been used in ancient Macedonia, not the Greek city states. As far as I know it has not been found on the territory of the ancient city states, but I could stand corrected.2. "This particular design" is indeed observed elsewhere outside Lower Macedonia:(article in Macedonian) 12 cups found in the Samuil's Fortress in Ohrid (Lychnidos) 2 years ago, along with a golden mask and a golden glove and ring on display in the Museum of Ohrid (cc IV BC).
http://www.nepokor.org/Nepokor/Arhiv/casisamoil.htmlThe site below speaks for itself.
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Maced ... anSun.html A few weeks ago archaeologists found a 16-ray sun imprinted on a stone, which was part of the foundations of a cc4-5 AD church in the vicinity of Tetovo in Macedonia (near Kosovo-Albanian border). Unfortunately I could not find the article in english with pictures. There are many other examples."Thanks, that what's I noticed too. Yet, is there an art historical study on this subject?"I think there is some research on the subject done by Macedonian heraldrysts. Unfortunately, I don't have any info on that. Surprisingly or not, the link below (see the last paragraph) shows that the "sun thing" has been on the territory that was and some of it still is called Macedonia for quite some time:
http://www.culture.in.mk/story.asp?id=4568
so more reaserach is required. BTW, Kumanovo is on the North-East of Macedonia on the border with Serbia/Bulgaria.In support of the above:
http://www.culture.in.mk/story.asp?id=1901Regards,
Matz

[Cabla]

I think its a star; and I think the design has shown up in India a lot, with 8 and 16 points but without the flower- usually with just dots or smaller 12 point rosettes inside-isn't that flower native to the region of ancient macedon?

[tino]

Perhaps this passage from Herodotus may shed some light:"This Alexander was seventh in descent from Perdiccas, who got for himself the tyranny of Macedonia in the way that I will show. Three brothers of the lineage of Temenus came as banished men from Argos to Illyria, Gauanes and Aeropus and Perdiccas; and from Illyria they crossed over into the highlands of Macedonia till they came to the town Lebaea. [2] There they served for wages as thetes in the king's household, one tending horses and another oxen. Perdiccas, who was the youngest, tended the lesser flocks. Now the king's wife cooked their food for them, for in old times the ruling houses among men, and not the common people alone, were lacking in wealth. [3] Whenever she baked bread, the loaf of the thete Perdiccas grew double in size. Seeing that this kept happening, she told her husband, and it seemed to him when be heard it that this was a portent signifying some great matter. So he sent for his thetes and bade them depart from his territory. [4] They said it was only just that they should have their wages before they departed. When they spoke of wages, the king was moved to foolishness and said, GÇ£That is the wage you merit, and it is that I give you,GÇ¥ pointing to the sunlight that shone down the smoke vent into the house. [5] Gauanes and Aeropus, who were the elder, stood astonished when they heard that, but the boy said, GÇ£We accept what you give, O king,GÇ¥ and with that he took a knife which he had with him and drew a line with it on the floor of the house round the sunlight. When he had done this, he three times gathered up the sunlight into the fold of his garment and went his way with his companions.
So they departed, but one of those who sat nearby declared to the king what this was that the boy had done and how it was of set purpose that the youngest of them had accepted the gift offered. When the king heard this, he was angered, and sent riders after them to slay them. There is, however, in that land a river, to which the descendants from Argos of these men offer sacrifice as their deliverer. [2] This river, when the sons of Temenus had crossed it, rose in such flood that the riders could not cross. So the brothers came to another part of Macedonia and settled near the place called the garden of Midas son of Gordias, where roses grow of themselves, each bearing sixty blossoms and of surpassing fragrance. [3] In this garden, according to the Macedonian story, Silenus was taken captive

[tino]

...Silenus was taken captive. Above it rises the mountain called Bermius, which none can ascend for the wintry cold. From there they issued forth when they had won that country and presently subdued also the rest of Macedonia."http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... &loc=8.137

[yiannis]

Jesus Matz, ok you're "Macedonians", you have the star, happy now?
I said that this "particular" design has not been observed alsewhere, didn't I?
Otherwise, 8, 12 or 16 star designs are being found in abudance in the whole world!
I've seen them everywhere. In Samos there's a church dating 18th century CE that has this design in it's pebbled courtyard, long before the tombs of Vergina were excavated.
Or have a look at this site and see the design on Athenian shields: http://www.ritsumei.ac.jp/se/~luv20009/ ... rns_1.html
or have a look here: http://www.thrace.0catch.com/images/arm ... shield.jpg on the design on Athena's shield from a thracian rhyton.
and since were talking about shields, here's a ceremonial one from a Macedonian tomb (the one thought to be Philip's) http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Helle ... b.htmlLike said before, the sign was (most probably) the sign of the Agread dynasty, but it was also used as a decorative sign by many people throughout the world. There was no copyright attached to it

[yiannis]

Thanks Tino, I found the same info:The Temenidai regarded Herakles as the progenitor of their dynasty and depicted him and his club on their coins. The royal emblem of the sun as a sixteen-pointed star is connected to a legend according to which the conquest of Macedonia was the result of king Perdikkas I having appropriated a patch of land lit by the sun.
Here's the same depiction of the Sun-God (Helios) on an ancient Greek vase: http://www.theoi.com/Ouranos/Helios.html
http://www.theoi.com/image/T17.2Helios.gif (note the name "HLIOS"One should also mention here the connection between Alexander's Osiris, the Egyptian lord of the dead, and Zeus, the Greek sun-god