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Death by Hellebore

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:34 am
by agesilaos
I recall a programme on TV with a British bobby getting to grips with the stories around Alexander's death and deciding, quite arbitrarily, that he poisoned himself with Hellebore, accidentally.Plutarch Alx. 41 '...he wrote to Craterus' physician Pausanias, when the latter wished to treat him with hellebore, expressing his anxiety and advising him how to use the drug.'Now, I am the first to pooh-pooh any letters of Alexander and I would put this in with the other forgeries but it does show that the danger associated with hellebore was understood and given Alexander's botanical training under Aristotle it would be strange if he was unaware of it. Which weakens the man from CID's already weak case further. Has he written his theory up as a book and addressed this, an hour long TV programme is a small canvas for real discussion after all?

Re: Death by Hellebore

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:03 am
by Tre
Actually Hellbore quite possibly caused the death of Hephaistion. It was a commonly used purge but has a nasty habit of stopping the heart. I find that particular letter likely to be genuine - Alexander was noted for as a professor friend of mine put it, for being the 'Dear Abby'of Macedon, i.e. always getting involved in his friends/soldiers lives.However, if one accepts the diaries as genuine (and I do - they just left out symptoms that might have suggested poisoning, although I definitely don't agree with poisoning as a cause of death, for many reasons)Alexander appears to have been incapable by that time of either speaking or movement (quite possibly he suffered a stroke)let alone dosing himself. By that time any decent practioner would have left him alone to die in peace as there was no hope of recovery. 'First, do no harm...'Regards,Tre

Re: Death by Hellebore

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:09 pm
by iskander_32
KarlI saw the programe you refer to, and basically i trhought the guys reasoning was stupid.Especially his reasoning for dismissing the assasination by poisoning, the reason and only reason he dismissed it was he felt it wasnt the Macedonian way to poison,the culprit would more than likely stab there victim, I thought that reasoning was very shallow.He had Cassnder more or less bang to rights withwhat we call circumstantial eveidence, Cassander had Motive Opportunity and most importand he had what we would say form, where as he extinguished all of Alexanders existing blood lines.We debate and disagree on Alexanders death but I always come down on the murder, I think Oliver Stone will also, as cassander seems a prominent part in the screen play, the only legitimate part Cassander would play in the Alexander story would be if he had something to do with hes death.With regards to the accidental poisoning, that outstretches the other theories are we to believe that Philip Alexanders doctor who saved his life on numerous occasions was so inept that he let Alexander poison himself?The interesting part of the programe was where they used a computer generated bummmy, the dummy died in similar circumstances that Alexander did and the cause of death to the practice dummy was poisoning.regards kenny

Re: Death by Hellebore

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 4:59 am
by agesilaos
I agree that the reasoning in the programme was shallow, in fact it struck me at the time that it was tosh like that which he was serving up that made eighties crime reports read like soccer results; Birmingham 6 Guildford 4, etc.Tre I think your professor friend ought to rethink, the evidence for this Dear Abbyness is surely these bogus letters so it would be fallacious to argue that they are genuine because they reveal that trait. Even Plutarch is amazed that Alexander found time to write so many! (42)On Hephaistion's death I have a neat theory but it is part of some writing what I am doing so I cannot disclose it until my piece is finished.I don't think there was a Diary as Hammond contests but I can believe the course of the illness described since Arrian's narrative sources confirmed it in outline, the differences between his account and Plutarch's coming from his inexact reconciliation of the Diary and Aristoboulos.

Re: Death by Hellebore

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 12:34 pm
by Tre
Hi Karl:It is not the letters that suggest his 'Dear Abby' tendencies but rather historical detail that suggest the letter to be genuine. I take a moderate approach - I believe some of the letters genuine, others not, rather than to say they are all false (unlikely in my view) or all genuine (equally unlikely).Alexander had as much time as he wanted to write. He had the good fortune to make his own schedule.I believe the diaries did exist or rather a journal, but I am certain some editing went on. Both Arrian and Plutarch believed them to be genuine and since they were viewing things much closer than I, I accept their opinion. We know there was a journal based on that little episode with Eumenes.Regards,Tre

Re: Death by Hellebore

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 6:21 pm
by ruthaki
I also go with the 'poison' theory, though not the usual way (i.e. hemlock) but with tainted or toxic water mixed with his wine while he so ill that it aided in his demise. I once discussed the poison theory with a professor from the Society of Macedonian Studies in Thessaloniki and she totally agreed. But..everyone to their own theories. Who will ever really know? (And yes, poisoning was pretty common in those days for getting rid of people quickly. Olympias gave Eurydike that option (along with two others). And Arridaios may have been either give small doses of poison or dropped on his head as an infant rendering him mentally inefficient.

Re: Death by Hellebore

Posted: Mon May 03, 2004 10:05 pm
by Nicator
Hello Ruth,I've been off the internet for a while due to another move. But, it's great to be back. I like your theory, but it relies on the notion that the perpetrators were standing by with poison and a plan, ready and waiting for Alexander to become ill. It would be easy to kill someone off in this state, and the best part would be that all would likely blame it on the illness...not poison. I've considered this notion myself on a number of occasions. The Macedonians were fully capable of, and particularly Cassander, not above this type of devious, sinister planning. The inescapable truth to any investigation concerning ATG's death, is that we just don't have enough information. later Nicator