MORE NATIONALISTIC PROPASGANDA -

[DimitriosPoliorketes]

The Real Scholars say other wise strong Illyrian and Thracian influence can thus
be recognized in Macedonian speech and manners. These however are only trifles compared with the Greek character of the Macedonian nationality; for example the names of the true full blooded Macedonians, especially of the princes and nobles, are purely Greek in their formation and sounds." Ulrich Wilcken, "Alexander the Great", Norton & Company, 1967
"That the Macedonians were of Greek stock seems certain. The claim made by the Argead dynasty to be of Argive descent may be no more than a generally accepted myth, but Macedonian proper names, such as Ptolemaios or Philippos, are good Greek names, and the names of the Macedonian months, although differed from those of Athens or Sparta, were also Greek. The language spoken by the Macedonians, which Greeks of the classical period found intelligible, appears to have been a primitive north-west Greek dialect, much influenced by the languages of the neighboring barbarians." J.R. Hamilton, "Alexander the Great", London, 1973In favour of the Greek identity of the Macedonians is what we know of their language: the place-names, names of the months and personal names, which are without exception Greek in roots and form. This suggests that they did not merely use Greek as a lingua franca, but spoke it as natives (though with a local accent which turns Philip into Bilip, for example). The Macedonians' own traditions derived their royal house from one Argeas, son of Macedon, son of Zeus, and asserted that a new dynasty, the Temenids, had its origin in the sixth century from emigrants from Argos in Greece, the first of these kings was Perdiccas. This tradition became a most important part of the cultural identity of Macedon. It enabled Alexander I to compete at the Olympic Games (which only true Hellenes were allowed to do).... The Macedonians, then, were racially Greek." Richard Stoneman, "Alexander the Great", Routiledge, London and New York, 1977 MACEDONIANS SPOKE AN ARCHIAC GREEK DIALECT SIMILIAR TO THE DORIC DIOLECT WHICH SOUNDED DIFFERENT FROM THE IONIC GREEK SPOKEN BY THE ATHENIANS WHICH WAS GRADUALLY ADOPTED BY THE GREEK WORLD.

[ruthaki]

I agree with your closing statement, Demitrios. Can you tell me (or anyone?) whether Alexander actually competed in the Olypmic Games? I thought I remember reading that he didn't want to 'steal' the victory, knowing they'd automatically let him win as he was the King's son and he wanted to win fairly. But I believe he was a very accomplished athelete.

[stavros]

helloi know that philip had horses that competed in the olympic games. He famously won the chariot race, which, by that time had been added to the Olympic event card. no foreigners allowed. Also both philip & alexander built a monument at the ancient site of Olympia, that is still there in ruins. It was called "The Philippeion".
A circular peripteral building, which was begun by Philip II after the battle of Chaeroneia (338 B.C.) and was completed by Alexander the Great. It was used for the heroworship of the Macedonian dynasty. The statues were the works of art of Leochares. as far as alexander, he was too busy talking strategy to conquer the enemies of the ancient greek world.cheersstavros

[ruthaki]

Thanks Stavros. Yes, I've seen the Philippeon at Olympias and now I remember that Philip did win a chariot race. I just thought I'd check regarding Alexander as I was going to mention something in my novel but wanted to be as accurate as I could. Cheers and happy new year to all you Companions and friends of Alexander. (I also saw a very nice head of Alexander as a youth that was found at Olympias.)

[ScottOden]

Ruth,I think Alexander actually looked down on professional athletes. One of his circle asked why he didn't compete, and he answered because the other athletes weren't kings, too. I'll look around for the citation and get it to you asap.Scott

[lazar]

Happy New Year to all participants in this forum. So, We have Real and Unreal scholars,right? The ones who wrote about the greeknes of Macedonians were Real, and the unbiased ones are Unreal. It is OK for me, yet the facts are still out there, and nothing can delete those facts.
Quote:

strong Illyrian and Thracian influence can thus be recognized in Macedonian speech and manners. These however are only trifles compared with the Greek character of the Macedonian nationality; for example the names of the true full blooded Macedonians, especially of the princes and nobles, are purely Greek in their formation and sounds." Ulrich Wilcken, "Alexander the Great", Norton & Company, 1967
Here we go with Wilcken again:
[p. 26] "The dislike was reciprocal, for the Macedonians have grown into a proud masterful nation, which with highly developed national consciousness looked down upon the Hellenes with contempt. This fact too is of prime importance for the understanding of later history Note: (1) If in fact the ancient Macedonians were Greeks, and the Greeks are the Hellenes, then, how can a "Greek- Hellene", like the ancient Macedonians, look down upon themselves? Note: (2) If in fact the ancient Macedonians were regarded as Greeks, like the Thebans, Athenians, Spartans and the other city-states of Greece, how come, we do not find any Greek city-state elevated as a nation? For example, the Athenian nation, the Spartan nation and so forth? This usage of "Macedonian nation" by Wilcken is not an accidental at all. He uses the terms "Macedonians and Greeks" repeatedly throughout the book. Obviously, he finds a strong need to differentiate between these two peoples
"Even in Philip's day the Greeks saw in the Macedonians a non-Greek foreign people, and we must remember this if we are to understand the history of Philip and Alexander, and especially the resistance and obstacles which met them from the Greeks. The point is much more important than our modern conviction that Greeks and Macedonians were brethren, this was equally unknown to both, and therefore could have no political effect." [p. 22-23]
Philip was the Hegemon, the federal general, selected for life by the congress. His kingdom of Macedon naturally did not belong to the Hellenic League..." [p.44]
"On the other hand, we look in vain for the 7000 league infantry in the battle front. One gets the impression that, apart from the Tessalians, Alexander to

[lazar]

cont...
One gets the impression that, apart from the Tessalians, Alexander took the Greek contingents rather as hostages, who would help to keep Hellas quiet." [p.75]
Thebans responding to Alexander's demands: "anyone who wished, in company with them and the Great King, to free Greece from the tyranny of Alexander, should forthwith join them." [P.72]
"The Greeks regarded the hegemony of Philip as, after all, a foreign domination; they did not look upon the Macedonians as Greeks." [p.45]
"When Philip read the book, the insistence of his descent from Heracles must have been welcome to him; for in his policy he had to stress this mythical derivation, as the types of Heracles on his coins show. But on the other hand he must have smiled at the naivete shown by Isocrates." [p.36]
"The strong emphasis on Philip as a Heraclid and therefore a true Hellene, was to make easier for Greeks the idea of subordination to foreign leadership." [p.35-6]
This is as far Wilcken goes, maybe even further...Regards,Lazar

[lazar]

Quote:"That the Macedonians were of Greek stock seems certain. The claim made by the Argead dynasty to be of Argive descent may be no more than a generally accepted myth, but Macedonian proper names, such as Ptolemaios or Philippos, are good Greek names, and the names of the Macedonian months, although differed from those of Athens or Sparta, were also Greek. The language spoken by the Macedonians, which Greeks of the classical period found intelligible, appears to have been a primitive north-west Greek dialect, much influenced by the languages of the neighboring barbarians." J.R. Hamilton, "Alexander the Great", London, 1973
J.R. Hamilton, Associate professor of Classics and Ancient History from the University of Auckland, New Zealand, writes:'In view of the small part that the Greeks had played in the battle the inscription (with its omission of any mention of the Macedonians) must be regarded as PROPAGANDA designed for his GREEK ALLIES. Alexander does not fail to stress the absence of the Spartans
Why would Alexander use a propaganda to gain support from the Greeks if He himself was a Greek and this was a Greek expedition.
So much from, J.R.'s bias.
Regards,LazarMACEDONIANS SPOKE AN ARCHIAC GREEK DIALECT SIMILIAR TO THE DORIC DIOLECT WHICH SOUNDED DIFFERENT FROM THE IONIC GREEK SPOKEN BY THE ATHENIANS WHICH WAS GRADUALLY ADOPTED BY THE GREEK WORLD
If we take this as a true statement, still we are talking only for the Macedonian Royal House, again with doubts.

[lazar]

cont...The fact that most of inscriptions about Macedonian kings are written in Ancient Greek, does not guarantee itself their ethnic origin. Even if it does, we are talking only about Macedonian Kings. What about thousands or maybe millions of other people living in Macedonian KINGDOM?
Arrian emphasises the difference in pronouncing the Macedonian and Greek names at that time: ex. Ptolemy son of Lagus for the Macedonians and Ephifanos the Athenian for the Greeks.
(Referring to Arrian's separation of Macedonians and Greeks)
"The same painstaking attention to details is evident in administrative matters. Appointments of governors are duly mentioned, and throughout his book Arrian is careful to give the father's name in the case of Macedonians, e.g. Ptolemy son of Lagus, and in the case of Greeks their city of origin." [p.25]
There are lot of writings which clearly distinguished Ancient Macedonians from Ancient Greeks... Philip II marriage with Cleopatra, Philota episode, Cleitus Murder, Demosten speeches, etc.
Macedonia and Greece: Two Ancient and Separate Nations - John Shea 1997 pp.23-35
"Badian quotes a surviving papyrus fragment that seems to be the only good source to reveal the facts of the infantry use of Macedonian. This fragment tells of a battle, early in 321 B.C., in which the Greek commander Ambiance faced the Macedonian Neoptolemus with his Macedonian phalanx. Wanting to have the Macedonians join him rather than fight him, Ambiance needed to convince them of his superior position. The story continues: When Eumenues saw the close-locked formation of the Macedonian phalanx ... he sent Xennias once more, a man whose speech was Macedonian, bidding him declare that he would not fight them frontally but would follow them with his cavalry and units of light troops and bar them from provisions. Badian tells us that Xennias' name reveals him to be a Macedonian. Since he was with Ambiance he was probably a Macedonian of superior status who spoke both standard Greek and his native language. Ambiance needed this interpreter to transmit his message. This means that the phalanx had to be addressed in Macedonian if they were going to understand. Ambiance did not address them himself, although this was the common way for leaders of the time, nor did he send a Greek. Badian concludes that Greek was a foreign tongue to the Macedonians. Similarly, Alexander used Macedonian to address his guards because it was their normal langu

[lazar]

cont......Badian concludes that Greek was a foreign tongue to the Macedonians. Similarly, Alexander used Macedonian to address his guards because it was their normal language, and he had to be sure he would be understood".
"Many scholars have concluded that the ancient Macedonian language was not a Greek dialect and that it was more or less related to the languages of Macedonia's northern neighbors, the Illyrians and the Thracians. These scholars include Muller and Mayer, writing in the nineteenth century, and Thumb, Thumb-Kieckers, Vasmer, Kacarov, Beshevljev, Budimir, Pisani, Russu, Baric, Poghirc, Chantraine, Katicic, and Nerosnak, writing in the twentieth. Here attention will be given to sources more readily accessible to those who want to inquire further".
Regards,Lazar

[stavros]

any Jewish people on this website. can they please explain "Hunnakah", to our Fyromian friends. from my understanding its a celebration of the defeat of the greeks. greek kings "Diadochi" from Alexander and the hellenic empire 200-300 years after Alexander. This is a huge celebration in Jewish culture.the Greek Diadochi of Alexander the Great were defeated by Jews to preserve their jewish heritage. Now fyromian, you are rewriting ancient Jewish history too. I dont think so. stavros

[stavros]

hello RuthakiHappy New Year to you (to all of pothos as well) and all the best with your novel.i cannot wait to get to Olympia this year (& the 2004 olympics) to visit the ancient site & of course the Phillipeion. Where did you see the head of ATG found at Olympia? Im assuming it was the museum located at the ancient site, if they have one. every other ancient site seems to have a museum nearby?? that would also be on my itinerary.yia sou,Stavros

[marcus]

Hi Ruth,No, Alexander never competed. The business about him not wanting to 'steal' a victory was with regard to Parmenion's advice that he mount a night attack at Gaugamela, but you are on the right track - apparently Alexander's unwillingness to compete at the Games was that he would only compete against kings.More to the point, I think, is the fact that he never had *time* to compete All the bestMarcus

[marcus]

Lazar,You clearly have far too much time on your hands

[lazar]

Marcus,
Thank you, but with all due respect, i really don't appriciate lies posted about Ancient Macedonians like some people do. Best Regards, Lazar