The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

[sikander]

Greetings,
Just wanted to drop a line to tell everyone that this is a good discussion and thoroughly enjoyed.
Sorry to read about the difficulties with the sire re rain and dirt... worth preserving... choices to be made, i suppose.

Regards,
Sikander

[gepd]

The team has actually confirmed that the dirt covering the peribolos poses no danger to this wall , and it is something unavoidable until maintenance works are completed (something that needs time, given the size of the tumulus). Most of the work now is concentrated in the chambers which could collapse if left unattended. The team is also analysing the findings and plan a one or two day focused meeting towards the end of the summer to present the findings in detail to the archaeologists.

All the above is based on that article (in greek): http://www.thetoc.gr/politismos/article ... kataleipsi

[system1988]

About the debriefing of the new Minister of Culture, Nick Xidakis in Huffington Post Greece

http://www.huffingtonpost.gr/2015/05/16 ... ref=greece

Here is an excerpt from the text that is of interest.

Ναι, βάσει του αρχαιολογικού νόμου, μέσα σε εννιά μήνες από την ολοκλήρωση του ανασκαφικού κύκλου πρέπει να ανακοινώσει τι έχει βρει. Τρέχει ο χρόνος, οπότε μέχρι το φθινόπωρο θα πρέπει να κάνει μια πλήρη ανακοίνωση. Αυτή είναι η υποχρέωση της βάσει του νόμου. Ότι έχει βρει, μελετήσει, τις περιγραφές της, τα συμπεράσματά της, ότι υλικό υπήρχε, να το παρουσιάσει.

Translation

"According to the law for archaeology, within 9 months after the completion of the excavation cycles the findings must be published. Time is running out so a full announcement must be made until Autumn. That is her (Mrs Peristeri) obligation according to the law. Whatever she has found, studied, her descriptions, her conclusions, whatever material there is to be present must be done so."

[Taphoi]

About the debriefing of the new Minister of Culture, Nick Xidakis in Huffington Post Greece

http://www.huffingtonpost.gr/2015/05/16 ... ref=greece

Here is an excerpt from the text that is of interest.

Ναι, βάσει του αρχαιολογικού νόμου, μέσα σε εννιά μήνες από την ολοκλήρωση του ανασκαφικού κύκλου πρέπει να ανακοινώσει τι έχει βρει. Τρέχει ο χρόνος, οπότε μέχρι το φθινόπωρο θα πρέπει να κάνει μια πλήρη ανακοίνωση. Αυτή είναι η υποχρέωση της βάσει του νόμου. Ότι έχει βρει, μελετήσει, τις περιγραφές της, τα συμπεράσματά της, ότι υλικό υπήρχε, να το παρουσιάσει.

Translation

"According to the law for archaeology, within 9 months after the completion of the excavation cycles the findings must be published. Time is running out so a full announcement must be made until Autumn. That is her (Mrs Peristeri) obligation according to the law. Whatever she has found, studied, her descriptions, her conclusions, whatever material there is to be present must be done so."

He is also now saying that the occupant was a great person, having previously noted that they were not looking for a famous deceased, but he seems not to think it important to know who it was and he seems to be hoping that the identity will emerge in thirty years or so.
Best wishes,
Andrew

[Taphoi]

Encouragingly, the Greek Reporter at http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/05 ... g-delayed/ is quoting the the Greek Duputy Culture Minister, Nikos Xydakis, as follows:

The Casta Tomb in Amphipolis is a monument that has been buried since a few years after its construction.

Best wishes,
Andrew

[agesilaos]

I fail to see what you find encouraging; that the chambers were built and then buried is not news and certainly does not imply they can withstand bad weather now that they have been cleared of fill and the structure has been weakened over the centuries.

[Taphoi]

I fail to see what you find encouraging; that the chambers were built and then buried is not news and certainly does not imply they can withstand bad weather now that they have been cleared of fill and the structure has been weakened over the centuries.

If the chambers were sealed within a few years of their construction, then the bones are the original occupants and not secondary Roman intrusions. The dating of the tomb to the last quarter of the 4th century BC being correct (as everything would suggest) and the 60+ woman being the principal occupant on the grounds that her bones were concentrated in and arounfd the actual coffin cut (the others being concentrated in overlying layers), then Olympias is the only death of a 60+ woman in the period who could have merited a tomb of such size and grandeur. Furthermore a sealing after a few years is consistent with Cassander acting after the murder of Alexander IV.
Best wishes,
Andrew

[agesilaos]

I thought it might be somesuch, but my dear Watson, you have forgotten the evidence of regular and long use in the wear of the marble doors. The minister did not say 'sealed', and would clearly be in error if he had, but 'buried' referring, I think to the chambers alone, the weathering of the facade demonstrates it was not buried but left exposed to the sun. Nor does a date not being ruled out mean that it is set: since no dating evidence has been produced we are all still in the dark, arguments from style are not conclusive, all we can really say is that the thing is post Alexander and pre-Roman, purely on the grounds that the kingdom was too poor before Alexander and too weak after the fall of the monarchy to have produced such an expensive monument. Contra Palageia, it seems perfectly Hellenistic rather than Roman.

I would curb your encouragement, then; the findings cannot be far from being released and then there might be something more solid to go on, who knows I may have to buy an edible hat, but I doubt it.

[gepd]

Encouragingly, the Greek Reporter at http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/05 ... g-delayed/ is quoting the the Greek Duputy Culture Minister, Nikos Xydakis, as follows:

The Casta Tomb in Amphipolis is a monument that has been buried since a few years after its construction.

Best wishes,
Andrew

To my understanding, that is just a bad translation or misleading interpretation of the minister's sayings by the journalist. There is no such statement that the tomb was buried few years after its construction.

[Taphoi]

Encouragingly, the Greek Reporter at http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/05 ... g-delayed/ is quoting the the Greek Duputy Culture Minister, Nikos Xydakis, as follows:

The Casta Tomb in Amphipolis is a monument that has been buried since a few years after its construction.

Best wishes,
Andrew

To my understanding, that is just a bad translation or misleading interpretation of the minister's sayings by the journalist. There is no such statement that the tomb was buried few years after its construction.

The Greek Reporter says that the Greek Deputy Culture Minister "sent a formal document to the Greek Parliament" and gives the above as a direct quotation from that text, so it was not a statement made to journalists. Do you have the full text of the document sent to the Greek Parliament please? If it is not in the other news reports, that would not be surprising, since the media are not very good at spotting the most significant parts of these statements.
Best wishes,
Andrew

[amyntoros]

The Greek Reporter says that the Greek Deputy Culture Minister "sent a formal document to the Greek Parliament" and gives the above as a direct quotation from that text, so it was not a statement made to journalists. Do you have the full text of the document sent to the Greek Parliament please? If it is not in the other news reports, that would not be surprising, since the media are not very good at spotting the most significant parts of these statements.
Best wishes,
Andrew

More important, I think, is what was said (or sent) to the Greek Deputy Culture Minister and who was his source. In all, absolute sincerity, I have no personal objections to the skeleton in the tomb belonging to Olympias. It would, in fact, be wonderful for Greece and for the area surrounding Amphipolis in particular, because tourists would delight in visiting the tomb of a queen and the mother of Alexander. It troubles me, however, that monies have apparently not been made available to secure the proper protection of the tomb (drainage, etc.) If it were known or even suspected that Olympias is the female skeleton then surely the greatest effort would be made to secure funding despite the serious problems facing the Greek parliament in these troubled times. Tourism is vital to the country and when the tomb of a queen is found it is to be celebrated in order to encourage increased tourism. Somehow I don't think that extremely veiled hints (such as those implied by the comments by the Deputy Culture Minister) would suffice if the evidence and continuing research pointed to Olympias. But, as Agesilaos said, we will have to wait and see. (I'm also wondering if any money is to made by starting a small Etsy business that makes edible hats!)

Best regards,

[Taphoi]

The Greek Reporter says that the Greek Deputy Culture Minister "sent a formal document to the Greek Parliament" and gives the above as a direct quotation from that text, so it was not a statement made to journalists. Do you have the full text of the document sent to the Greek Parliament please? If it is not in the other news reports, that would not be surprising, since the media are not very good at spotting the most significant parts of these statements.
Best wishes,
Andrew

More important, I think, is what was said (or sent) to the Greek Deputy Culture Minister and who was his source. In all, absolute sincerity, I have no personal objections to the skeleton in the tomb belonging to Olympias. It would, in fact, be wonderful for Greece and for the area surrounding Amphipolis in particular, because tourists would delight in visiting the tomb of a queen and the mother of Alexander. It troubles me, however, that monies have apparently not been made available to secure the proper protection of the tomb (drainage, etc.) If it were known or even suspected that Olympias is the female skeleton then surely the greatest effort would be made to secure funding despite the serious problems facing the Greek parliament in these troubled times. Tourism is vital to the country and when the tomb of a queen is found it is to be celebrated in order to encourage increased tourism. Somehow I don't think that extremely veiled hints (such as those implied by the comments by the Deputy Culture Minister) would suffice if the evidence and continuing research pointed to Olympias. But, as Agesilaos said, we will have to wait and see. (I'm also wondering if any money is to made by starting a small Etsy business that makes edible hats!)

Best regards,

Unfortunately, however, as we are all well aware, enormous numbers of people with "reputations" in the field have made extremely incautious statements to the effect that this cannot possibly be Olympias. Mainly, they have been motivated by a desire to uphold a flawed vision of history written by the winners, where Olympias is caricatured as an evil harridan, hated by her people. It grates terribly with these people that the most magnificent tomb ever found in Greece should have been constructed in honour of this queen, especially in a period (315-310BC) when they have believed that the power of her faction had been overthrown. Therefore they are happy to ignore the copious evidence, which I will continue to argue absolutely screams that this is indeed the tomb of Olympias. The welfare of the tourist industry in Greece is as nothing to them relative to the importance to them of maintining their distorted world view. In fact Olympias did little more or less than other Macedonian rulers in pursuit of her enemies and all the evidence is that she was well-loved and respected by her numerous friends in proportion to the degree that she oppressed their opposition, whom they considered traitors to Alexander (with some justification). It will continue to be fascinating to watch this unfold.
Best wishes,
Andrew

[agesilaos]

The problem with your analysis, Taphers old boy, is that it ignores the fact, and they are facts that it was Olympias' enemies who ruled Macedonia upon her demise and that she was a personal enemy of Kassandros having executed one brother and desecrated the tomb of another, she also murdered the King and Queen along with many of Kassandros' supporters. Nor is it only in Diodoros we find this picture it is certanly in Plutarch and equally in Arrian both of whom may have been dependent on Hieronymos in parts but the picture seems to have more than one source...mmh sounds like a cue for some Quellenforschungen Will have to start a different thread, though.

Not only is the site ruled by an inveterate enemy it is also allegedly built at a time where we have fairly full source material and this volte-face is not even hinted at, despite the various turns of Fate being a stock theme. These historical considerations do militate against Olympias having such a tomb, and one may add the inscription which may indicate a burial at Pydna still identifiable long after the Kastas tomb was built. So, it is hardly a case of vested interests or reputations (other than that of Hieronymos or whoever Diodoros' source was).

The evidence so far hardly screams unless you have a theory, in which case they are the screams of confirmation bias rather than evidence; if one ignores the written evidence and the, admittedly, fragmentary epigraphic evidence, then one might say Olympias cannot be ruled out but that is far from saying the evidence points to her.

[Taphoi]

The problem with your analysis, Taphers old boy, is that it ignores the fact, and they are facts that it was Olympias' enemies who ruled Macedonia upon her demise and that she was a personal enemy of Kassandros having executed one brother and desecrated the tomb of another, she also murdered the King and Queen along with many of Kassandros' supporters. Nor is it only in Diodoros we find this picture it is certanly in Plutarch and equally in Arrian both of whom may have been dependent on Hieronymos in parts but the picture seems to have more than one source...mmh sounds like a cue for some Quellenforschungen Will have to start a different thread, though.

Not only is the site ruled by an inveterate enemy it is also allegedly built at a time where we have fairly full source material and this volte-face is not even hinted at, despite the various turns of Fate being a stock theme. These historical considerations do militate against Olympias having such a tomb, and one may add the inscription which may indicate a burial at Pydna still identifiable long after the Kastas tomb was built. So, it is hardly a case of vested interests or reputations (other than that of Hieronymos or whoever Diodoros' source was).

The evidence so far hardly screams unless you have a theory, in which case they are the screams of confirmation bias rather than evidence; if one ignores the written evidence and the, admittedly, fragmentary epigraphic evidence, then one might say Olympias cannot be ruled out but that is far from saying the evidence points to her.

Let us recall where we are on the matter of evidence. We have the largest and most magnificent tomb ever found in Greece reasonably securely dated to the last quarter of the 4th century BC containing the bones of a 60+ woman as its principal occupant. It is located at Amphipolis, the city of which the surrender to Cassander let immediately to Olympias’s murder by Cassander, when she was aged about 60. It is now asserted by the Greek Deputy Culture Minister (who must obviously be following his private briefings) that the tomb was sealed within a few years of its construction (as also is shown by the fact that the paint on its façade is no more weathered than the paint within its chambers). This means that the bones are confirmed as those of the original occupant. We also have sphinxes guarding the entrance and it is known that sphinxes were used to decorate the thrones of at least two late 4th century BC Macedonian queens including that of Olympias’s mother-in-law (sphinxes were sacred to Hera and the Macedonian king and queen posed as earthly versions of Zeus and his wife Hera). We also have a couple of greater than life-size statues of priestesses of Dionysus guarding the entrance to its second chamber recalling the famous account in Plutarch of Olympias’s associations with these “Klodones”. We also have a truly stunning quality pebble mosaic depicting the abduction of Persephone where it is quite obvious that the woman is intended to symbolise the occupant of the tomb being taken into the underworld. This “Persephone” is a queen with flame coloured hair, where we know that Olympias’s family were famous for their flame coloured hair (the family name of Pyrrhus actually meaning someone with flame coloured hair). The otherwise inexplicable early smashing, looting and sedulous sealing of the emptied tomb is perfectly explained by the murder of Olympias’s grandson and daughter-in-law at Amphipolis 6 years after her death. There is no other 60+ woman who could possibly have been given such a tomb in the last quarter of the 4th century BC, so there is nobody else whose tomb this could possibly be. To add to all this we have paintings in the tomb that appear to depict the Mysteries of Samothrace at which Olympias first met Philip. They are the Mysteries of Samothrace because the celebrants (a man and a woman) are depicted engaging in bull sacrifice at night (the scene has a black background and is lit by a large brazier) and the celebrants wear red belts and there are Nikes flitting about in the scene, all of which is recorded of the Mysteries of Samothrace.

So I do indeed insist that the evidence screams that this is the tomb of Olympias. If anyone wishes to propose another candidate, then they will be doing so in the face of this overwhelming evidence.

That Cassander attempted reconciliation with the Royal Family is shown by his marriage to Thessalonike and by his failure immediately to murder Alexander IV and Roxane. That the Royal Family continued to exert massive political influence until every last one of them had been murdered is shown by the initial success of the revolt of Heracles supported by Antigonus and Polyperchon in 309BC and by Antigonus’s panic when Cleopatra proposed to marry Ptolemy. And by the fact that nobody else dared to call themselves kings until all the Royal Family were dead ten years after the death of Olympias. Clearly, in the period 315-310BC the Royal Family were sufficiently influential as to draw resources from across the empire to give Olympias a fitting tomb. And why not? Until he was actually murdered, it was generally supposed that her grandson Alexander IV would shortly take power everywhere when he came of age at 14. His grandmother had succeeded in making him the only legitimate candidate by murdering Philip III. It is only in retrospect that we see the decisive defeat of the Alexander loyalists as happening at the death of Olympias. At the time it was only seen as a setback for them.

Best wishes,
Andrew

[gepd]

The Greek Reporter says that the Greek Deputy Culture Minister "sent a formal document to the Greek Parliament" and gives the above as a direct quotation from that text, so it was not a statement made to journalists. Do you have the full text of the document sent to the Greek Parliament please? If it is not in the other news reports, that would not be surprising, since the media are not very good at spotting the most significant parts of these statements.
Best wishes,
Andrew

They refer to an oral statement, which corresponds to "Ένα μνημείο, το οποίο από την κατασκευή του πρέπει να συνεργάζεται συνεχώς με το έδαφος, να δέχεται και να «απαντάει» στις ωθήσεις." (...It is monument that since its construction must constantly cooperate with the ground, accept and "respond" to the loads." (http://www.real.gr/DefaultArthro.aspx?p ... 88&catID=1).

The story has been picked up by every news website in Greece and the above is the closest statement I could find to what the Greek Reporter apparently translated.

Most importantly however, during the open briefing by the excavation team last year, they stated numerous times that sealing occurred during the Roman times. They have given many interviews since then, there is no change to that statement. The woman's skeleton is just the most complete skeleton, but there is no inference if that was the main occupant and if so, whether it is a late addition or contemporary to the monument's construction. In other interviews, Katerina Peristeri stated that the main occupant may have been a man - the one of the 1.60 m height skeleton. Public outreach was handled in a very amateurish way, don't be surprised if any statements change in the future.

Furthermore, as said recently it appears the Karyatids (or however they have to be called) where apparently surrounding a statue, the base of which has been identified in the marble floor. They were possibly crowing it, they were not guarding an entrance. The excavators also noted that they found in the 3rd chamber positions for a funeral urn and a funeral bed/couch (κλινη - not sure what the terminology is).

Finally, if you want to see more images of the 3rd chamber and the top of the tumulus from the presentation of the person who disputed some of the team's findings, have a look here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYghv8ghqIM