Page 5 of 7

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:35 pm
by rjones2818
athenas owl wrote: Also, and I know I am waundering here. If Parmenion was to be executed, why bother with the two letters?
The line's always been that the first letter was a forged letter from Philotas which Pemenion was to read, with his reactions being looked for. The second was from Alexander, explaining the first was a fake.

Of course, the first could have been just to announce that Philotas was found guilty of treason, but that Parmenion had been spared. The second one would then have been "Just kidding (seems more like what the 'bad' Alexander camp would argue)."

:twisted:

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:28 am
by karen
athenas owl wrote:Yes, I'm a veteran of the teenage tornado...I married a man with 6 kids. I survived intact, just barely. :lol:
Wow. My hat's off to you. I have two with autism spectrum disorders, does that count as four normal ones? ;)
I don't know about Kallisthenes..it is so murky, like everything that happened in that region. I'd give my eye teeth for a papyrus that chronicles the years from 330 to 326. What a mish mash. I have a made a flow chart, literally, to try to keep track...it doesn't help that much. (I make these a lot, for the Successor years and the family connections of Antipater, Ptlomey and Lysimachus...that last one, whew.)
Why all this research -- are you writing a book or something? Are your flow charts electronic, and if so would you be willing to share them privately?
Yes, criminal negligence is the perfect description
I'm not a lawyer but as I understand it, today's charge of criminal negligence doesn't take into account whether you were being opportunistic or just asleep at the switch. Doesn't matter -- result is the same, and the clear fact is that you didn't do something you were supposed to and the result was bad. This of course spares the courts the difficulties of sorting that question out.
Also, and I know I am waundering here. If Parmenion was to be executed, why bother with the two letters?
I can tell you Mary Renault's interesting theory: Alexander's orders to the general weren't just to kill Parmenion. They were, "Hand him these letters. When he reads the one supposedly from Philotas, if he looks happy rather than shocked, kill him." If you read the passage in Curtius you can see how she came up with this.

Myself, I have doubts. The whole plan would have been screwed up if Parmenion had just tucked the letters under his arm to read in private later, which made it very precarious. Unless Alexander knew he was in the habit of reading important letters immediately, even if others were present? ???

It's a theory, anyway.

Update -- oops -- didn't notice RJones's message before posting this one. (This thread is JUMPING today.) I thought it was Mary Renault's theory -- was she preceded in it by someone else?

Warmly,
Karen

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 3:19 am
by athenas owl
karen wrote: Wow. My hat's off to you. I have two with autism spectrum disorders, does that count as four normal ones? ;)
Oh, my hats off to you Karen.
Why all this research -- are you writing a book or something? Are your flow charts electronic, and if so would you be willing to share them privately?
Sadly thet aren't electronic, yet. Though if I do put them on the comp I will share them happily. I've got a few different projects going, yes. Though oral histories are my focus (contemporary subjects) this is more a labour of love.

I can tell you Mary Renault's interesting theory: Alexander's orders to the general weren't just to kill Parmenion. They were, "Hand him these letters. When he reads the one supposedly from Philotas, if he looks happy rather than shocked, kill him." If you read the passage in Curtius you can see how she came up with this.

Myself, I have doubts. The whole plan would have been screwed up if Parmenion had just tucked the letters under his arm to read in private later, which made it very precarious. Unless Alexander knew he was in the habit of reading important letters immediately, even if others were present? ???

It's a theory, anyway.

Update -- oops -- didn't notice RJones's message before posting this one. (This thread is JUMPING today.) I thought it was Mary Renault's theory -- was she preceded in it by someone else?

Warmly,
Karen
I read Renault's works for the first time here a few months ago. While I don't share her adoration for ATG, she does, or did rather, see things from a different angle and offered ideas that were new to me. Thinking outside the box never hurts anyone. Not that I agree with everything, but it was worth the different perspective.

I just always thought that letters, especially 2 of them, was odd...if you are going to knock the guy, why the subtrfuge?

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:36 am
by Paralus
I’m a long way behind events – in this thread anyway – with far too many “Companions” and two too many symposia. The most recent of which was away in the “Eprirus” of the western marches of Sydney with the none-too fearful spousal matriarch and sister-in-law. Thank the gods my son returned with me and that there seemingly are no dynastic upheavals.

Perhaps it’s best I just sort of start again and have a run at the whole scenario. If it rambles, apologies in advance: it is not necessarily planned and I’ve a badgering son wishing to play “Runescape”.

We seem to have a number of things on the go: Caesar and Pompey are father and son just like Philip and Alexander; Pauasanias’ murder of Philip indicating Philip was unpopular; Hermolaus as untrustworthy teenager; The happiness or otherwise of the Macedones and their aristocracy with Alexander – especially over the last years and the murder of Clietus (and others). I may have missed some but I’d think that sums it up. I’ll have a shot – not necessarily in order.

The first, that Trogus was writing about Caesar and Pompey who “were father and son” like Philip and Alexander is, I think, dead letter. The evidence to float it is as strong as that floating the various Atlantis theories.

On Pausanias I’m more in the Aristotlean camp: he acted of his own accord based on his personal motives. That does not say he acted alone. He had “good reason to knock-off Philip”: he’d been raped repeatedly by Attalus’ muleteers and, ostensibly, Attalus and his guests. He sought a hearing and redress from the king, something all Macedones have the right to and was “patted on the head” and sent on his way. He was festering.

I further believe that Olympias, though over the moon with the results, did not plan it. She was (most likely) in Epirus. Were she to have planned it one might assume that the Epirotes will have been in a position to press her claims (her son) – possibly some of those Illyrians too that he will have visited – just on which, I am with Hammond on that wandering: "…such freedom of movement was possible only with the permission of Philip and, it was no doubt with Philip’s approval that Alexander returned to Pella, probably late in 337." (Philip of Macedon). We have no indication of that. Indeed, what we do have is a ready at the steering wheel Antipater. Although inevitably looking back through the prism of later events, those two present as an unlikely alliance. To my reading, the only political alliance that could succeed here was one behind the usurped Amyntas (the son of Perdiccas). Again, should that have been the case we might have expected those supporters to be in evidence once they’d achieved the removal of the usurper (Philip). It is instructive that they are all removed without much further ado. A poorly executed (pardon the pun) coup.

I’ve likely written most of what I’ve to say about Clietus. In the end it comes down to the speeches in the sources and how and why they are used. If they are to be consigned to anti Caligula rhetoric and personal barrow pushing then we need to ignore them for this and – a fortiori – for Alexander’s exhortation of his men (calling them by name); his “conversations” with Parmenio and his prayer at Opis – that “brotherhood of man” fusion speech as well as others. They serve, like those in Thucydides and others, to illustrate a point. The fact is that although the sources all retail different details with respect to what was said prior to the murder, they all agree on two points: the fact that the flattery of Alexander (which raised the ire of the “older” Macedonians) disowned Philip as his father and that the Macedonian successes were all down his generalship (the Macedonian disaster against Spitamenes and the generals who died there being the direct example). Clietus becomes the “spokesman” for this resentment. It will not simply have been generated by this symposium in isolation. The incident highlights Macedonian resentment at the orientalising habits of Alexander and the sedulous flattery he seemingly was happy to entertain. The words need not be exact.

Marcus and Amyntoros have addressed the Hermolaus issue in large part. Obviously regicide is not being “justified” here. Reasons for such are being expounded. It is difficult to believe that there was anything in this for the other pages if we are to assume that the sole reason was Hermolaus’ flogging. Other pages are unlikely to court death because one has been – in the Macedonian tradition – dealt with by the king. These young men were in close contact with the king – they did, after all, guard his person. They essentially “lived” with him and, as such, will have been privy to more, one might suggest, than the sources feel obliged to record. Again, we can dismiss as spurious the words that Hermolaus utters even though nothing he was going to say would change his fate, but I would argue that his words are indicative of the feeling amongst not only a section of the school of Pages but also the Macedonians themselves. To quote Bosworth:
It is unlikely that the affront to Hermolaus’ amour proper was enough to motivate all the conspirators, and the wider grounds of discontent adumbrated in the vulgate tradition have something in their favour. The growing despotism of the court may have alienated the younger members of the nobility as much as it did their seniors, and the recent attempt to introduce proskynesiss could have served as catalyst to their disaffection. Conquest and Empire
Either way, I agree with you Karen that Callisthenes was not actively involved in the plot other than that his views were used. One might have suggested that one or more of the pages will have dobbed him in outright. Ditto Alexander’s “involvement" in his father’s death: the “conspirators” there (sons of Aeropus) would surely have put him in it.
karen wrote:I don't interpret the cancellation of the last plans and the abandonment of the marriages as disagreement with them in principle, or a testament to Alexander's bad character. I think the plans were more likely seen as something only he could have pulled off, and besides now there was this other little matter to attend to <steely sound of long knives being loosened in sheathes. Re the marriages, I doubt Alexander forced his nobles to take them; more likely he inspired them with his dream of merging the two nobilities -- but once he was dead, everyone figured that dream was dead with him, and it was return to former reality.
Certainly the abandonment was at the urging of Perdiccas. He had no wish to go galloping off to Arabia whilst his empire was in turmoil. He needed time to consolidate. The total abandonment amounts to a complete repudiation in any case though. Ditto the marriages. The only concrete evidence for one surviving is that of Seleucus (possibly Eumenes). All the others were ditched in a haste only bettered by the occasional Hollywood celebrity. They too were repudiated utterly and by association, their sponsor Alexander.

The final eloquent word goes to the rank and file. In a complete repudiation of the “fusion of the ruling class” ideal, they rebelled in Babylon and chose as King a half-wit, half brother Argaed over the child of Alexander. They weren’t about to have a half Asian/Macedonian as king. That they lost both the subsequent fight and several heads in the resultant purge in no way lessens the impact of their rejection of Alexander’s half-caste offspring.

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:38 am
by athenas owl
About those repudiated marriages. We know of only a handful of the officers by name. Perdiccus, Eumenes, Nearchus, Craterus, Seleucus, Ptolemy. Perhaps the nearly all divorces are just of the ones the narrator felt were important to the history of the Diodachi struggles.

I have my own doubts about Nearchus repudiating his Persian wife. He had put forward Barsine's son, his own brother-in-law as king and after the wars started he was fighting on the side of Antigonus..who ruled the area where Barsine was living...it is entirely possible that he did stay married. A key point to remember about Nearchus is that he was not one of the key players in the struggle in the west.

And then there is Peucestas, certainly he must have been one of the bridegrooms and continued on as satrap of Persis for something like 7 years. I would be suprised if he also set his Persian wife aside. I don't know if the other satraps were also bridegrooms, thinking of the eastern ones like Sibyrtius, but if they were, they, too might have kept their very politically handy brides.

Interestingly to me, there's the tale of Amastris, neice of Darius. Married off to Craterus at Susa, he set her aside for Phila, after the Lamian War ended in the fall of 322. (Antipater's daughter who was later married to Demetrios Poliorcetes) and she married Dionysus of Heraclea. He died and lo and behold Lysimachus marries her(far from a repudiation), though he then falls into the honey trap of a Ptolemaic marriage to his own great cost later.

So it wasn't a sure thing that the Persian brides were immediately dumped on June 12th (except maybe Ptolemy :) ), but rather as the politics of the west quickly played out, the repudiations happened because of the needed alliances between Antipater's, Ptolemy's and Lysimachus's camps and Seleucus' as well. Even Perdiccas' next marriage or marriages were part of that dynastic struggle. Again a daughter of Antipater, Nicaea (who later married Lysimachus) and then Kleopatra (who then gets knocked off by Antigonas because she is going to marry Ptolemy).

Then there's Ptolemy, who divorced, dumped, etc his Persian wife, marries his mistress, divorces her to marry...yes, another daughter of Antipater, who he then dumps for her lady on waiting. Hence helping to create that honey pot that brought down Lysimachus.

I wonder how it would have played out if Antipater hadn't had so many daughters! :P

So in some ways, the failed Perisan marriages might be viewed as less a repudiation of the orientalising policy and more a neccessity in the great heaving struggle in the west. I think that is a very important point that gets missed.

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:48 am
by Paralus
athenas owl wrote:So it wasn't a sure thing that the Persian brides were immediately dumped onJune 12th (except maybe Ptolemy ), but rather as the politics of the west quickly played out, the repudiations happened because of the needed alliances between Antipater's, Ptolemy's and Lysimachus's camps and Seleucus' as well...

...So in some ways, the failed Perisan marriages might be viewed as less a repudiation of the orientalising policy and more a necessity in the great heaving struggle in the west. I think that is a very important point that gets missed.
No one is suggesting the marriages were repudiated the next day. One might assume that they were dead letter though after their architect was dead. That most took part in this mass wedding was not due to any belief in racial fusion – the opposite in fact Arr. VII.6.2:
They brought with them some 30,000 young fellows, all boys of the same age, all wearing the Macedonian battle dress and trained on Macedonian lines. Alexander called them his epigone – “inheritors” – and it is said that their coming caused much bad feeling among the Macedonians, who felt it was an indication of his many efforts to lessen his dependence for the future on his own countrymen. Already the sight of Alexander in Median clothes had caused them no little distress and most of them had found the Persian marriage ceremonies by no means to their taste – even some of the actual participants had objected to the foreign form of the ceremonies in spite of the fact that they were highly honoured...
One suspects there was precious little choice in the matter. This was not all they resented though.
They resented, too, the growing orientalism of Peucestas, governor of Persia…just as they resented the inclusion of foreign mounted troops in the regiments of the Companions.
A lot of resentment there and a lot of it focussed on “orientalising” and foreigners too. You can bet that the Macedonian aristocracy will have been seething at it - especially the last, the Companion Cavalry - and it didn't simply begin here.

You rightly point out the dynastic alliances among the Diadochoi. Dynastic "legitimacy" was grease for the gears of Diadoch politics. Well, that and the “autonomy of the Greeks”. It is instructive that all of those marriage alliances are with Macedonian women. That would be because, in the Macedones’ eyes, the Persian women were, as women of a defeated empire, nothing in the scheme of dynastic influence. It was only in Alexander’s east that these women were coin of the realm when it came to dynastic power plays.
karen wrote:Getting back to "rule with" vs. "rule over" friends -- there is one friend whom Alexander was very willing to rule with: Hephaestion. Was Philip ever heard to say, of anyone, "He too is Philip" -- or the like?


No. He was married to far too many to select the one. If one thing is clear though, it is that Alexander was groomed – his entire life – to be Philip’s inheritor if not his Hephaestion.

As to the other intriguing statement, what makes you think that he would – the fact that Alexander made him chilliarch? He also made Perdiccas chilliarch after Hephaestion’s death. Alexander – in my opinion – had no intentions of “sharing” his kingship with anyone – Hephaestion included.

You mentioned also the soldiers’ debts – some 9,800 talents worth. One wonders how they came by such debt. The conquest, though accreting vast amounts of wealth to the king, seems not to have been quite so profitable for the troops. As well, the disaffection amongst the army at large with their king was so bad that when he offered to discharge their debts Alexander’s motives were immediately impugned.

He, seemingly, was not altogether trusted.

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:18 pm
by amyntoros
Paralus wrote:No one is suggesting the marriages were repudiated the next day. One might assume that they were dead letter though after their architect was dead. That most took part in this mass wedding was not due to any belief in racial fusion – the opposite in fact Arr. VII.6.2:
They brought with them some 30,000 young fellows, all boys of the same age, all wearing the Macedonian battle dress and trained on Macedonian lines. Alexander called them his epigone – “inheritors” – and it is said that their coming caused much bad feeling among the Macedonians, who felt it was an indication of his many efforts to lessen his dependence for the future on his own countrymen. Already the sight of Alexander in Median clothes had caused them no little distress and most of them had found the Persian marriage ceremonies to their taste – even some of the actual participants had objected to the foreign form of the ceremonies in spite of the fact that they were highly honoured...
You quoted the above to prove your point and then misquoted it! It should read “and most of them had found the Persian marriage ceremonies by no means to their taste …” :lol:
… As well, the disaffection amongst the army at large with their king was so bad that when he offered to discharge their debts Alexander’s motives were immediately impugned.

He, seemingly, was not altogether trusted.
I’m working on a post about disaffection amongst the army throughout the campaign. It may not see the light of day whilst this thread is still active (too much time needed to go back and forth through the various sources), but I’ll try.

Best regards,

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:41 pm
by karen
I’m working on a post about disaffection amongst the army throughout the campaign. It may not see the light of day whilst this thread is still active (too much time needed to go back and forth through the various sources), but I’ll try.
If the thread isn't still active, post it anyway... that'll get it active again!

Warmly,
Karen

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:47 pm
by athenas owl
Paralus...I have no doubt that there was resentment (again filtered trhough later writers eyes). Arrian is handy when you want to paint a certain picutre, but he is not to be trusted when he talks about Alexander's drinking? Lastly, ironically, what was the mutiny at Opis about? They were being kicked out of the party!

As for the marriages, when I read things like only Seleucus and maybe Eumenes kept their Persian brides it bothers me, because we don't know that at all, as we don't know who the vast majority of grooms were. And again, I'd like to point out that Craterus (the most Macedonian of Alexander's generals) didn't set Amastris aside for a year and half after ATG's death, and that as an aftermath of the uprising in Greece, when Antipater gave him Phila as a reward...and "oriental" that Amastris was, she still wed another of the Diodachi 20 years later.

I wish we knew more about the Susa weddings. They obviously took some planning, they didn't spring from whole cloth one fine spring day. "Suprise!" Would the "orientalising" have been so resented had not Alexander died and the support of the very old school Macedonian Antipater been so important? How much of this is rewriting history. See, I don't know and none of us should state catagorically so. Which brings it around to that bias thing as Amyntoros quoted in the first post
Alexander often left a banquet stained with the blood of his companions
He left one banquet certainly in that condition, but often? Is that "often" like Arrian's "Most of them"?

Tthe "orientalising" meme is also ironic...Ptolemy in Egypt assuming the very "oriental" trappings of the Egyptian monarchy most of all. If only to keep his Egyptian subjects happy...sound familiar? Here's a pic, just for a reminder:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3APtolemy_i_bm.jpg

Lastly, did Alexander actually ever use the words "racial fusion"? I though it was concord or something like that.

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:54 pm
by Paralus
Thank the Gods for an editor. Fancy that, a lacuna in my text. Well spotted Amyntoros: way too many symposia.

A quickie…the office awaits (bugger)…
athenas owl wrote:Paralus...I have no doubt that there was resentment (again filtered trhough later writers eyes). Arrian is handy when you want to paint a certain picutre, but he is not to be trusted when he talks about Alexander's drinking? Lastly, ironically, what was the mutiny at Opis about? They were being kicked out of the party!.
They are all handy when you “want to paint a picture”. So, I imagine that the evident resentment doesn’t fit your picture and so Arrian is no longer “handy”? What has drinking to do with it? Arrian paints quite a picture of the drinking of the last days in actual fact.

The “mutiny” at Opis is about the spill over of anger – built up over time – at the progressive “orientalising” of the court, the army and the “Companionate”. Although not necessarily unhappy at “retirement” this was not going to happen via the promotion of Persians to rank and the replacement of Macedonians in the national army by a defeated and largely despised enemy.

Seems clear to my reading whether related by Ptolemy, Aristobulous or “through later writers eyes”.
athenas owl wrote:"Would the "orientalising" have been so resented had not Alexander died and the support of the very old school Macedonian Antipater been so important? How much of this is rewriting history.
It, to me, was clearly resented before his death. A long time before his death. It did not simply appear “surprise” at Opis. His death simply allowed its freer expression
athenas owl wrote:
Alexander often left a banquet stained with the blood of his companions
He left one banquet certainly in that condition, but often? Is that "often" like Arrian's "Most of them"?
Given that the one is Justin/Trogus and the other Arrian I’d say the comparison is utterly irrelevant. When Arrian (or Ptolemy/Aristobulus or “later writers”) says “most of them” I assume that most means what it normally would.

Egypt and the transplanted Macedonian/Greek Ptolemaic dynastic implant is its own subject. Time to go…

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:04 am
by athenas owl
Arrian, Pluttarch..I got them mixed up..though who supposedly cites the "apologist", Aristobulus? My comp on another floor from where my books and writing are (love my pencil!). The last month of Alexander's life was so politcally charged with major kiester covering that I don't take any of the sources as a source of truth. Was he a drunk? Was he poisoned? Who the heck really knows? Yes, Justin is an extreme example, but "most of them" is not to be taken at face value.

I don't have a dog in the fight, but as I said, there are discrepencies, to my mind, about the level of resentment. This is supposedly the same group of people whose sentiments forced ATG to drop the proskynesis idea and yet they sat still for forced marriage?

It does depend on ones desired interpretation doesn't it? I think they killed Alexander somehow in those last twelve days, as I have said before, it is just too handy him dying like that right before the Arabian campaign. So I don't discount resentment at all.

However, it is entirely plausible that the wedding was planned earlier, the officers had a clue for some time, even as early as India. Why not let the deserts of Makran do him in, er...you know what I mean? As for the idea that they feared Alexander because of the death of Cleitus, I do believe this is exaggerated. Even the feelings about Philotas and Parmenio. Tthey successfully and non-violently blocked his advance further in India. And the "reign of terror" when he reemerged from Makran is exaggerated beyond all belief.

I was always under the impression that all the bridegrooms at Susa had dumped their wives right away (except for Seleucus), because this is what scholars have declared. So what has tempered my view IS the fact that Craterus did not (right away) and that at least one of the Susa brides was a player in Anatolia decades later, Peucestas, who must have been a groom, very unlikely that he would have done this, or Nearchus in the most cynical viewpoint, to keep his family relationship to the blood of Alexander would not have divorced his bride either.

So I want to think outside the minimalist box (Alexander..all .bad, all the time) and see beyond the paradigm. If that makes me an apologist, so be it. I do not see Alexander as Tarn did at all. ATG is much more complex and interesting than either camp give him credit for.

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:03 am
by amyntoros
athenas owl wrote: I don't have a dog in the fight, but as I said, there are discrepencies, to my mind, about the level of resentment. This is supposedly the same group of people whose sentiments forced ATG to drop the proskynesis idea and yet they sat still for forced marriage?


There’s a very big difference between opposition to proskynesis and “forced” marriages. Greeks and Macedonians did not bow down before anyone but a god and at the time of the proskynesis affair they obviously did not view Alexander as such. (Not to mention that they didn't like Persian traditions in any shape or form.) Much is made of Alexander being “one of the boys” by various historians and Pothosians and it’s a big jump from Macedonians viewing Alexander that way to bowing down or prostrating oneself before him. I don't think the forced marriages were that big a deal. I think the clue lies with the constructed bridal chambers - IMO the grooms were expected to consummate their marriages during the five days of the ceremony and then afterwards to leave with Alexander, wherever he went. The brides may even have returned to their own estates. Almost all marriages were arranged in ancient times – this time it was Alexander who did the arranging instead of the parents of the bride and groom. I wouldn’t put too much importance in “objections” from the men involved. I doubt that they even cared one way or the other until/unless the political aspects of their marriages came to the fore after Alexander’s death.
However, it is entirely plausible that the wedding was planned earlier, the officers had a clue for some time, even as early as India.
I’ve thought that Alexander may even have begun his planning much earlier – perhaps when he sent the daughters of Darius to learn Greek. He had no way of knowing that his eastward campaign would tie him up for so many years.
As for the idea that they feared Alexander because of the death of Cleitus, I do believe this is exaggerated. Even the feelings about Philotas and Parmenio.
Here I disagree, especially about Parmenio. There’s plenty of evidence for disaffection on the part of the army where he is concerned. (Pulling the following from my yet unfinished post.) Lets look back to the aftermath of the Philotas affair when Alexander had his men’s homeward-bound mail read in secret and formed a special unit for those who complained of “being tired of the hardships of the campaign” (Curtius 7.2.33). This, however, was not the only complaint. The same passage of Curtius includes those who had expressed regret over Parmenion’s death and tells us that the group “more or less comprised those against whom the king bore a grudge on other grounds.” Diodorus (17.80.3-4) describes them as “those who made remarks hostile to him (Alexander)” and “those who were distressed at the death of Parmenion, as well as those who wrote in letters sent home to Macedonia to their relatives anything contrary to the king’s interests.” This group of men was formed from those who wrote home and expressed their dissatisfaction. How many others may not have written of their feelings? And how many of the rank and file may not have been able to write at all? We tend to assume that all of the army was literate, but we can’t know that for certain.

I’m not entirely convinced that the death of Cleitus caused the Macedonians to “fear” Alexander - it's a strong word - but I do believe it taught them to keep their feelings to themselves. This could only have been reinforced shortly afterwards at the trial of the pages. Tell me the truth now. If you thought the killing of Parmenio was wrong or were opposed to Alexander’s adoption of oriental ways, would you speak openly after the above two events? I would not.
They successfully and non-violently blocked his advance further in India.
It seems it was the entire Macedonian force who wanted to return home and they probably believed in safety in numbers, although it is notable that no one wanted to speak up until Coenus found the courage.
So I want to think outside the minimalist box (Alexander..all .bad, all the time) and see beyond the paradigm. If that makes me an apologist, so be it. I do not see Alexander as Tarn did at all. ATG is much more complex and interesting than either camp give him credit for.
You write of the Alexander … all bad, all the time camp, but by making reference to “either” camp you’re obviously aware of the Alexander … all good, all the time faction. It’s very difficult to walk the middle ground. You feel that you do, yet people still view you as an apologist. I feel that I walk that same ground, yet some people view me as hostile! But yes, there is a tendency on the forum to see everything as black versus white, good versus bad, love versus hate, etc. Now I can say openly that I love Alexander, but I do see his faults and his mistakes and they make no difference. I won’t apologize for him/them because I see no need. But I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been challenged because I don’t look for or accept an “excuse.”

The forum, however, would be a dull place if we all thought alike … :)

Best regards,

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:39 pm
by athenas owl
Alexander did censor mail for awhile after a plot was discovered trying to kill him. No suprise from me. My husband's mail was read from Vietnam, and even today, soldiers in Iraq find their personal blogs shut down. Welcome to the military (believe me, in the modern context I find it awful that the blogs are controlled like that...for less good reason certainly than someone trying to kill Bush or a general). Did ATG kill those found to be disaffected? No, he put them all together in a separate unit. No decimation or other draconian actions. That there wouldn't be dissaffection would the more suprising. Perdiccas found that out to his own cost. Eumenes was betrayed for the baggage train if I remember correctly.

Here, I'm not condoning ATG for the letter censoring, but it is not something so out of line at all in military affairs, nor is the dissaffection of troops, throughout history. The use of the word "frag" was banned in my husband's units. Even though it was the name of a specific hand grenade, it was also the word that came to be known for the act of killing a superior officer. Which did happen.

I wouldn't blame any disaffected troops at all, but still have to wonder why, if they feared ATG so much, why he didn't disappear under the sands of the Makran. He, Hephaistion, Perdiccas, Peucestas...who would have questioned their deaths in that hell hole? Particularily if they so disapporved, I'm talking the officers here, of ATG"s Persian ways and the impending marriages, etc. All I'm saying is there was more at work that we don't know. These men were supposedly the toughest guys around and they were cowed by one little man?

What got us off on this tangent, for me anyway, was a blanket statement that all the marriages were failures except Seleucus and maybe Eumenes (this as somewhat become the canon, based on what...a phrase "most of them"?). I said we really don't know that for certain. Most of ALL the marriages or just the ones that concerned the big movers in the west? We assume, but we are reading sources that wrote from primary sources that had their own axes to grind and their own narrow focus.

Did they have the memoirs of Peucestas? Or any of the other pro-integrationists who might have survived. Did they have the memoirs of Perdiccas (most likely not I agree..though we certainly know that they had the memoirs of Ptolemy..so our slant on Perdiccas turns on the survivors, doesn't it. How they wished it to be remembered, in favour of themselves in their new positions...at the expense of those who could not speak for themselves any longer). What about the soldiers who may have loved their Persian wives and children? We don't hear about them (though I am sure they existed, it is human nature to love your children)...we only hear of the ones who were dissatisfied. Because that fits with the later propaganda (truth, but not all the truth).

As for being an apologist..I don't have any picture, mentally of Alexander himself. He is too remote, too used as a springboard for the views and politics of others for me. Knowing that every speech was put in his mouth by some other writer (some close, some made up of whole cloth, I think) and how many of the letters are forgeries (the philosophers in Athens are a great case in point, in regards to the death of Callisthenes, especially as Cassander was tight with them as had been his father)?

Really off to the side, the Macedonians climbing up and down the Hindu Kush, do you honestly think that they wouldn't have looked at those trousers of the Persians ans said to themsleves, "You know, covering your legs might not be such a bad idea!"

Every one reads what they want in the sources, truly. I find when reading thinking some things are not logical as reported, because they leave so much out. But then, where's the fun in not doing it... :D Did the narrative flow from a revisionist viewpoint?

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:58 pm
by Paralus
athenas owl wrote: Did the narrative flow from a revisionist viewpoint?
Find me a "narrative" that was not written later.

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:50 pm
by athenas owl
Paralus wrote:
athenas owl wrote: Did the narrative flow from a revisionist viewpoint?
Find me a "narrative" that was not written later.
Find me one that is not revisionist! :D

I was thinking about it last night, and tried to imagine if the only surviving texts a couple thousand years on, on the Presidency of Bill Clinton, were those by Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh..and Clinton's own biography. Or worse yet, editorialised extracts of these texts, written centuries after the fact, ala, Justin (trying to tie in the topic ;) )

BTW, if you don't know who Coulter or Limbaugh are...you are blessed. Though now that I think about it, that narrative flow began the day Clinton took office, and the alternate narratives continue till today. Demonthenes (reading bits of him and Aeschines is somewhat akin to watching the old shouting matches on CNN) was creating his narrative as he went, as was Alexander through his court historians. Ephippus was like that nasty gossip columnist Perez Hilton (you don't want to know, I wish I didn't).

Of course today information travels at the speed of light across the globe and there are billions more people, but I have lived long enough to see the narrative of an event change or at least try to be changed as it unfolds, or just days, weeks years after. An event in one's own lifetime can be seen through so many different eyes and the actual event is lost in the propaganda and wishful thinking, the Vietnam and current Iraq war come to mind.. Somehow, I don' think that part of human nature has changed at all.