pothos.org

If anyone is interested , doctor M. Bertolotti dedicated a whole chapter (pp. 306-332) of his book (La critica medica nella storia. Alessandro Magno, Torino 1932) explaining how and why Alexander faced and got over his illness in Tarsus. He believed that after the bath in the river Alexander developed a malarial fever. Doctor Bertolotti confronted this bout of sickness with the one that affected Lord Byron in 1824 with deadly consequences, and he explained Alexander's recovery with his better general health; but he believed his last illness also was due to a fresh outbreak of recurring malaria.

AdamKvanta wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 8:02 am

marcus wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 6:48 pm The problem is, that you are not providing any evidence. I produced source material that contradicted your source material ... then you just say "and then Parmenion changed his mind" or some such. Obviously you are perfected entitled to your interpretation of events, but you have to substantiate them, otherwise they are just assertion.

It's true that I don't have explicit evidence for all my assertions but that doesn't mean it's not plausible. Parmenion might have changed his mind and we know that he later wanted to stop the Asiatic campaign because he wanted to take Darius' peace offer (I already quoted the source of that).

But the problem is that the "If I were Parmenion" story is based on very shaky foundations, historiographically. It is indeed reported in pretty much all the sources, but it very likely came from the anti-Parmenion tradition. I'm not saying that it definitely wasn't true; but it remains very suspect.

Moreover, there is some evidence that Parmenion's son Philotas was plotting against Alexander in Egypt or even before they were in Egypt (in Tarsus perhaps):

Here also Alexander discovered the conspiracy of Philotas, son of Parmenio. Ptolemy and Aristobulus say that it had already been reported to him before in Egypt; but that it did not appear to him credible, both on account of the long-existing friendship between them, the honour which he publicly conferred upon his father Parmenio, and the confidence he reposed in Philotas himself.
https://topostext.org/work/205#3.26

And we know Philotas didn't really like Alexander and that his friendship was only a pretension:

Moreover, for a very long time accusations against himself [Philotas] had been brought to Alexander himself. For when Dareius had been defeated in Cilicia and the wealth of Damascus had been taken, among the many prisoners brought into the camp there was found a young woman, born in Pydna, and comely to look upon; her name was Antigone.

This woman Philotas got; and as a young man will often talk freely in vaunting and martial strain to his mistress and in his cups, he used to tell her that the greatest achievements were performed by himself and his father, and would call Alexander a stripling who through their efforts enjoyed the title of ruler.

Now, Philotas was ignorant of the plot thus laid against him, and in his frequent interviews with Antigone would utter many angry and boastful speeches and many improper words against the king.
https://topostext.org/work/172#Alex.48.5

Well, Philotas' conversations with Antigone do not point to any sort of plot against Alexander - he was merely boasting about his own, and Parmenion's, roles in Alexander's victories. We are told that Alexander was irritated, but he took no action against Philotas - mostly because there was nothing to take action against.

There was a rumour of a plot, involving Hegelochus, Parmenion and Philotas, which must have been discussed in Egypt, when Hegelochus arrived there from the Aegean fleet. This is reported in Curtius (6.11.22-28). However, the first we hear about it is during the trial of Philotas, when Parmenion wasn't around and after Hegelochus had died at Gaugamela. It is very strange that such a story appears in no other source, although it is very likely that it originated in one of the contemporary sources. Again, therefore, its veracity is very suspect.

Of course you might be right to suspect Parmenion. I don't hold with it, myself, as the 'evidence' is doubtful at best. But it's stuff like this that makes it so interesting a study!

marcus wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 6:56 pm There was a rumour of a plot, involving Hegelochus, Parmenion and Philotas, which must have been discussed in Egypt, when Hegelochus arrived there from the Aegean fleet. This is reported in Curtius (6.11.22-28). However, the first we hear about it is during the trial of Philotas, when Parmenion wasn't around and after Hegelochus had died at Gaugamela. It is very strange that such a story appears in no other source, although it is very likely that it originated in one of the contemporary sources. Again, therefore, its veracity is very suspect.

Great post, thanks! If anybody is interested, here is the link for that Curtius passage: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... 07&seq=109.

If that account is true, I take it as further evidence that Parmenion was planning to kill Alexander. And even though it became public in Egypt that doesn't mean Parmenion couldn't be planning to kill Alexander before. In fact, there was no surprise or opposition from Parmenion when Hegelochus told him that he wanted to kill Alexander. Parmenion just said let's not kill Alexander while Darius is alive. And this is also an explanation why Parmenion didn't try to kill Alexander after Issus (if my poison hypothesis is true). Darius was no longer such a threat. But before Issus (at Tarsus), the situation was different. Anyway, that's just my speculation.

One more thing to your argument that Parmenion had been completely in favour of the Asian campaign:

"Parmenio also, a man whose achievements with Philip had been many, and who was the only one of Alexander's older friends, or the principal one, to urge his crossing into Asia" (Plutarch, Alexander, 49.7)

I think we can't be really sure if Asia means the whole continent and we can't be really sure if Parmenion wanted to go to the entire Asia or just wanted to cross to Asia and subdue just the Anatolia region. There was a Roman province called "Asia" covering just western Anatolia. And according to Wikipedia, the word "Asia" comes from the Greek word Ἀσία, originally only applied to the eastern shore of the Aegean Sea. So maybe Parmenion just wanted to go to Anatolia but Alexander wanted to go farther. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_(Roman_province)

AdamKvanta wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 3:51 pm If that account is true, I take it as further evidence that Parmenion was planning to kill Alexander. And even though it became public in Egypt that doesn't mean Parmenion couldn't be planning to kill Alexander before. In fact, there was no surprise or opposition from Parmenion when Hegelochus told him that he wanted to kill Alexander. Parmenion just said let's not kill Alexander while Darius is alive. And this is also an explanation why Parmenion didn't try to kill Alexander after Issus (if my poison hypothesis is true). Darius was no longer such a threat. But before Issus (at Tarsus), the situation was different. Anyway, that's just my speculation.

Ah, but the Hegelochus business did not become public knowledge in Egypt - the first we ever hear about it is during Philotas' trial (and, remember, only in Curtius). The thing is, why wasn't this told by the sources that feel that Philotas (and Parmenion, maybe) was guilty, and the story only appears in Curtius, who pretty much demonstrates that Philotas and Parmenion were innocent?

It seems fairly clear that the story originated in a contemporary source, as using Hegelochus (who was related to Attalus and Cleopatra-Eurydice) as the instigator must have required close-to-the-ground knowledge. But no other ancient historian repeats it.

marcus wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 6:11 pm Ah, but the Hegelochus business did not become public knowledge in Egypt - the first we ever hear about it is during Philotas' trial (and, remember, only in Curtius).

I meant what Arrian wrote (and I already quoted it before):

Here also Alexander discovered the conspiracy of Philotas, son of Parmenio. Ptolemy and Aristobulus say that it had already been reported to him before in Egypt; ...
https://topostext.org/work/205#3.26

Arrian even gave us the sources (Ptolemy and Aristobulus). So it wasn't just Curtius who wrote about the conspiracy being revealed in Egypt even though only Curtius has the details about Hegelochus. And Curtius' account even gave us an explanation why it became public: Hegelochus was drunk.

chris_taylor wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 9:15 am on cold water shock ...

I applaud your enthusiasm, but occasionally one can learn from older folk. they've seen a lot and learnt that when the truths of textbooks enters the complexity of reality, it looks unexpectedly different. not wrong. different.

I'm not entirely sure if you see a connection between cold water shock and pneumonia or not. A single episode of cold water shock could perhaps weaken immunity a little but nothing that a young (22) healthy man couldn't handle, IMO. I'm aware of the hypothesis that long exposure to dry cold air in winter months can decrease the protective function of respiratory mucosa but this is clearly not the case. Alexander fell ill in the very warm and humid climate of Tarsus in summer. I'm not saying it's impossible but I'd have to see very compelling evidence to change my mind about the plausibility of pneumonia in this case.

Let me present you with a new hypothesis of Alexander's illness in Tarsus: Pontiac fever. It's a natural (non-poison) hypothesis but it doesn't have any adverse long-term effects on health.

There is a type of bacteria called Legionella and it causes one of two lung diseases:
Legionnaires' disease - a type of severe pneumonia
Pontiac fever - a mild respiratory disease (without pneumonia)

Legionella can be found in rivers:

Legionella bacteria live in the natural freshwater environments of rivers, lakes, streams and ponds.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/pontiac-fever

Illnesses usually occur in the summer and early fall: https://www.osha.gov/legionnaires-disease.

Alexander may have drunk some of the river water or it might have gotten into his lungs while he was drowning in shock.

Disease transmission primarily occurs through inhaling Legionella-contaminated, aerosolized water. While rare, exposure is also possible from breathing in (i.e., aspirating) Legionella contaminated soil or while drinking water.
https://www.osha.gov/legionnaires-disea ... nformation

So what's the difference between Legionnaires' disease and Pontiac fever?

Pontiac fever symptoms:

Influenza-like (flu-like) symptoms that may include low-grade fever, headache, tiredness, appetite loss, muscle and joint pain, chills, nausea, and a dry cough. Pneumonia is not present.
https://www.osha.gov/legionnaires-disea ... nformation

Duration of Pontiac fever (within a week):

The illness will go away without antibiotic treatment. Patients typically recover from Pontiac Fever within a week.
https://www.osha.gov/legionnaires-disea ... nformation

Legionnaires' disease symptoms:

Early symptoms may include low-grade fever, headache, aching joints (arthralgia) and muscles (myalgia), tiredness, and appetite loss. Later symptoms include high fever ranging from 39° to 41°C (102°-105°F), cough (dry at first, later producing phlegm), difficulty in breathing, chills, and chest pain. Gastrointestinal symptoms may include vomiting, diarrhea, nausea, and abdominal pain.
https://www.osha.gov/legionnaires-disea ... nformation

Duration of Legionnaire's disease (several weeks):

Untreated Legionnaires’ disease usually worsens during the first week. In common with other risk factors causing severe pneumonia, the most frequent complications of legionellosis are respiratory failure, shock and acute kidney and multi-organ failure. Recovery always requires antibiotic treatment, and is usually complete, after several weeks or months.
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-shee ... ionellosis

In young healthy adults, Legionnaires' disease is rare (just like pneumonia or malaria) and the attack rate is less than 5%. On the other hand, Pontiac fever seems to affect mainly young people and the attack rate is over 90%.
Source: https://www.osha.gov/legionnaires-disea ... nformation
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_fever

The incubation period of Legionnaires' disease is usually 2-10 days, for Pontiac fever it could be just hours:

It usually takes between a few hours to 3 days after being exposed to Legionella bacteria to develop Pontiac fever symptoms.
https://www.cdc.gov/legionella/about/ab ... fever.html

There is another case when someone drank water from the Cydnus river and got ill. Al-Ma'mun, the seventh Abbasid caliph, who reigned from 813 until his death in 833, drank water from that river and later died. I think he probably got the Legionnaire's disease (he was 46).
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ma%27m ... and_legacy

So I think I changed my mind about Alexander's illness at Tarsus, he probably had just Pontiac fever and was not poisoned. However, I still think Parmenion wanted Alexander's death even then in Tarsus. He didn't have to poison Alexander but when he got information that Alexander is seriously ill maybe he sent the letter to prevent Alexander's curing by Philip.

AdamKvanta wrote: ↑Fri Jun 07, 2024 5:14 am

marcus wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 6:11 pm Ah, but the Hegelochus business did not become public knowledge in Egypt - the first we ever hear about it is during Philotas' trial (and, remember, only in Curtius).

I meant what Arrian wrote (and I already quoted it before):

Here also Alexander discovered the conspiracy of Philotas, son of Parmenio. Ptolemy and Aristobulus say that it had already been reported to him before in Egypt; ...
https://topostext.org/work/205#3.26

Arrian even gave us the sources (Ptolemy and Aristobulus). So it wasn't just Curtius who wrote about the conspiracy being revealed in Egypt even though only Curtius has the details about Hegelochus. And Curtius' account even gave us an explanation why it became public: Hegelochus was drunk.

Ah, I misunderstood you perhaps. I have always understood the Arrian passage to refer to Philotas' drunken comments to Antigone; but I see that you're referring to the Hegelochus story. That's a difficult one to call - Arrian only mentions it as a Philotas conspiracy, rather than Philotas and Parmenion, so I don't consider it as being a dig at Parmenion (which is the point of the discussion). I can see where you're coming from ... but I don't see it as any sort of evidence for Parmenion plotting.