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agesilaos wrote: From the actual snippets (if so they are) preserved verbatim the so called 'Ephemerides' or Journal seems to be singularly wanting in the very details that Hammond wants it to preserve. This is a classic example of deciding what you want to believe and then concocting supporting circumstances.

Hammond was indeed a strong proponent of the "Royal Journal". Without going into the two (or was it three) papers arguing the subject he conjectures a concise record of the secretariat. This was to comprise not only the day to day ennui inducing detail of a court following a king in Willy Nelson mode but also the details of army numbers, dead, dying, wounded and repatriated or pensioned off. As well it should have included details of all of Alexander's schools for a "liberal" (to use Hammond's modern word) Greek education for the young future army camp residents that Alexander was having trained all over the empire - not just the upper satrapies. (These began arriving, by the way, about 330 [Lydians] and in 329 [Lycians and Syrians] having completed their boys to men training over four years. That, though, is another subject.)

A great pity then, as you say, that so little of such well kept detail does not survive into the sources. We do have, seemingly, a detailed account of Alexander’s strenuous efforts to follow Hephaestion during his last drunken days if the Ephemerides are accurate.

agesilaos wrote:Briant is quite good, I have not got that book but picked up 'Darius dans l'ombre d'Alexandre' on a trip to Calais. The book i am currently re-reading is Wiesehofer ('Ancient Persia) in his chapter on the Achaemenids he deals interestingly with the images of Cyrus and Xerxes. Using the Eastern evidence, the Nabonidus Cylinder in fact, its seems that far from sparing Croesus, he was killed as was Astyages, I don't know if there is a translation of this online anywhere.

Sounds interesting – if somewhat different. Briant, whilst stating that the tradition (Cyrus as Astyages’ son-in-law et al) “is suspect”, does not demur to the received wisdom that both survived. The Narbonidus Chronicle is online at Jona’s Livius as is the Cylinder. Whilst I am not certain that the latter is full, it does not mention Cyrus killing Astyages. Nor does the Chronicle: both refer to Astyages as “delivered” to or “taken captive” by Cyrus.

Be interested to read what Wiesehofer’s translation shows.

agesilaos wrote:There are a multitude of parallels between the Achaemenids and the Temenids which throws an interesting sidelight on Alexander's attitudes and the real origins of Macedonia's royal institutions.

A much observed, though none the less true, fact.

Semiramis wrote: I've been reading Pierre Briant's excellent "From Cyrus to Alexander" again recently.

Another with taste and a good appetite. All of which is a good thing: there is much to munch on. One of the better books – along with Anson's Eumenes – that I’ve read in recent years. It’s a bit like painting the Sydney Harbour Bridge though. Once you get to the end you need to start over again.

My ageing grey matter requires the addition of an external hard drive. Never mind - another shiraz will suffice…

The Livius page with the translation of the Nabonidus Chronicle may not be complete. I recall a line about Cyrus having already killed the kings of two lands when it was written and I couldn't find it on that page. One was the King of Medea and the other cannot be read clearly.

The accuracy of the Chronicles have been questioned quite vigorously. This is mainly based on the fact that it was written by an enemy. Also because follows the same motifs as earlier pronouncements. If we are comparing the Nabonidus Chronicles to the Greek sources - the stories about Astyages as Cyrus' father-in-law or or maternal grandfather were probably popular foundation myths that were circulating during the time of the Greeks authors. To me, the chronicles, being contemporary and local have the advantage. All sources seem to agree that the takeover of Babylon was peaceful, yes?

Incidentally the point about repeating motifs found in earlier documents could also be made for the Cyrus Cylinder - it is not that unique. So, all of this is putting a bit of a dampener on the champion of human rights and tolerance angle, isn't it? Not to mention the doubts Agesilaus is casting on the Biblical sources about the return of the Jews (would love to read the arguments made by Wiesehofer). I think that like Alexander, I like Xenophon's Cyrus better.

Regarding earlier Argead borrowings from Achaemenids, I think its pretty likely that at least the Macedonian institutions of the royal hunt and royal pages were borrowed directly from the Persians.

'Eumenes' is now on my reading list Paralus. However, after finishing Briant, I will probably be tempted to read a nice short novel with no useful information to bother the old hard drive.

Semiramis wrote:However, after finishing Briant, I will probably be tempted to read a nice short novel with no useful information to bother the old hard drive.

Am doing similar, it is called 'The Virtues of War' !

agesilaos wrote:

Semiramis wrote:However, after finishing Briant, I will probably be tempted to read a nice short novel with no useful information to bother the old hard drive.

Am doing similar, it is called 'The Virtues of War' !

I shouldn't drink coffee when I'm reading posts.

Paralus wrote: One wonders at the cuneiform tablet. Most likely the Astronomical Diaries and more likely that (BM 36390) which describes the omens presaging the Persian defeat and the desertion of Darius by his troops. This material is provided on Jona Lendering's site with a new translation by Bert van der Spek and Irving Finkel of the British Museum.

Well guessed, Paralus, that is exactly what it was. I've just been watching the programme and we saw Irving Finkel with the tablet in his hands, it was most impressive to see him reading it out! This was new to me, and I was very interested. Darius being deserted was mentioned and Michael Wood checked exactly what was meant, and Irving Finkel said not in the sense of running away, but in the sense of betrayal. This was taken by the documentary as evidence supporting the theory that Mazaeus had already agreed to go over to Alexander.
Mr. (Professor?) Finkel also said that the tablet contained a direct quotation from Alexander, viz, "I shall not enter their houses" which was taken to mean that he was promising not to loot Babylon.
Considering how contemporary this evidence is, that was very moving.

Paralus wrote: I wonder also what the papyrus is.

This was tiny fragments found in a rubbish heap in Egypt, which were prised apart and laid in newspaper to dry out, since...1914, I think it was. They are in a library in Oxford. The camera showed you the Greek writing, it was very clear, even I could make some of the words out. It seemed to be a history of Alexander, but whose, was not speculated upon. The most focus was given to the emphasis there seemed to be, in the description of the lead-up to the battle, of Alexander's having Darius' family in his hands, and what they were reading into it was that Alexander might have been bringing psychological pressure to bear on Darius before the battle.
I don't know how new this is as evidence, whether it's been looked at before, or whether there is really enough of it for any real conclusions to be drawn.

Paralus wrote: As to Alexander's route through Syria and northern Iraq, that seems fairly well known but it will be nice to see it as it exists today. The site of the battle has been known in general terms for quite some time. The clues are in the distances and time it takes to get agreed modern indentifiers (the Lycus river, "Arbela", etc) but the actual battlefield has probably been pinpointed to within a cruise missile strike on a Baghdad market's distance from actuality. I'd be interested to see the rationale for the seemingly exact determination.

It was great to see the scenery. Great big skies and wide open landscapes, all red and rocky. I was a bit stunned to see that the Euphrates had been dammed, though! He showed us first where Sir Aurel Steyn had thought the site was, and explained why it probably wasn't (the hills were in the wrong place) then took us to Tel Gomel, and this part was rather played as if no-one else had thought of it before. However, once there, we went up some hills - the part about not seeing the enemy until only four miles away - and it was that, combined with the distance from Irbil, and the name of Gomel being like Gaugamela, and something about the Gomel river that I didn't quite understand - I think that was the sum of the rationale, no doubt others will be more precise!
I enjoyed the programme, it was great TV. It showed me things I couldn't have seen for myself, and it put its images together in a clever way. There were quite a few sweeping statements and generalisations, but it felt even-handed and fair, and as always with Michael Wood, very good geography.
Fiona

Fiona wrote:

Paralus wrote: I wonder also what the papyrus is.

This was tiny fragments found in a rubbish heap in Egypt, which were prised apart and laid in newspaper to dry out, since...1914, I think it was. They are in a library in Oxford. The camera showed you the Greek writing, it was very clear, even I could make some of the words out. It seemed to be a history of Alexander, but whose, was not speculated upon. The most focus was given to the emphasis there seemed to be, in the description of the lead-up to the battle, of Alexander's having Darius' family in his hands, and what they were reading into it was that Alexander might have been bringing psychological pressure to bear on Darius before the battle.
I don't know how new this is as evidence, whether it's been looked at before, or whether there is really enough of it for any real conclusions to be drawn.

Cound it have been this? - an Anonymous Work on Alexander the Great from the Oxyrhynchus papyri stored in the Sackler Library, Oxford. Unfortunately they don't put the transcriptions online, only in the books they publish.

Best regards,

You are quite right, Amyntoros, the papyrus shown in the documentary is the one in the Sackler Library in Oxford.

Susanne

Well, aw shucks, it is now September 21, and nobody has mentioned how the program went...did anyone see it? Jan

Oops! I just found Fiona's post after I posted...sorry about that, Fiona. IT did not pop up until after I asked. Thanks for your comments. Jan

This papyrus is translated in Robinson's collection of lost authors, forget the actual title I'll post it when my knee lets me move more freely; be careful after whom you call yourself, wot! Brad Pitt was already taken

PAP.OXYRH 1798
Chapter 44 translated by Grenville and Hunt the resy by C A Robinson. Hammond differs on the restoration of capter 1.

1.He set free those sitting in the theatre… but those around the throne were given by him to the Macedonians. They cudgelled him to death. He gave Philip’s body to the attendants for burial…2…your…tears…of Cadmus…such disaster…has rolled upon Thebes and in truth Thebes among men uninhabited…ewes…
3-4…
5-6 Col.II: In the…there reigned…and Spithradat. Barbarians…armed…of the body…were…surprised…throng…contests…Macedon….
7-43…
44.Col I:( Philip was induced?) to try a medicine. When he was about to give it, Parmenion, who had a quarrel with Philip, wrote to Alexander bidding him beware of Philip to whom he heard Darius was offering a thousand talents and his own sister in marriage as the price of the king’s destruction. Alexander received the letter and suppressing it drank the medicine….
Col II:…The macedonians were siezed with dismay, for there were 600,000 of the barbarians, while the Persians held the Macedonians in contempt. When he saw that the decision was imminent Alexander was in a torment of suspense and had recourse to prayer calling onThetis and the Nereids and Nereus and Poseidon, for the last of whom he ordered that a four-horse chariot should be brought and cast into the sea; and he offered sacrifices by night..
Col III: …(first) the Persians took flight, then the rest of the barbarian host and after them the mercenaries. The cavalry were pursued by Alexander’s cavalry and the infantry by his infantry, and the plain was filled with corpses. A large number of the Macedonians fell on the barbarian camp, which was full of treasure of all kinds, in order to plunder its contents. But Alexander desiring to capture Darius pursued him at full speed; when he learned, however, that he…
Col IV: On the next day when he was suffering from lack of attention one of the Guards brought him a piece of bread that he had taken from a herdsman. In his hunger he ate it readily, remarking, ’Everyone likes to live’. There were killed of the Macedonians 1,000 infantry and 200 cavalry, and of the barbarians not less than 50,000 infantry and 3,000 cavalry, and about…of the mercenaries…
Col V: …Alexander…at Issus…
45…and releasing all of them he proceeded against Darius. He crossed the Euphrates and joined in a second battle with him…