To what extent did ATG believe that he was a God?

[jan]

I won't beleaguer this subject at all, but I suppose that some source told the Jews exactly where and how to make a proper circumcision. Sacrifices were rather standard amongst most primitive groups, and no official data is ever given as to what prompted the order, belief, or whatever you want to call it, suggestion. But to always make a specific cut on a specific ear, artery, or limb would become a religious rite. Some things which appear to be superstitious are actually medically sound, and probably, Alexander was privy to Egyptian knowledge about cuts and incisions that only he would dare do. I won't beleaguer this any further as I don't for one minute believe that Alexander would ever confide that to anyone! Pure speculation! (Again, author's privileges.)

[amyntoros]

Whether wanting to beleaguer the subject or not, Jan, when you post about something on Pothos you are inviting comments from the rest of us.

Sacrifices were rather standard amongst most primitive groups, and no official data is ever given as to what prompted the order, belief, or whatever you want to call it, suggestion.

Bit of a rash statement, and IGÇÖm taking this to mean that you personally know of no data regarding the order or belief behind sacrifice. In truth, there is much known and there are various books on the subject. You could learn more by reading The Cuisine of Sacrifice Among the Greeks by Marcel Detienne and Jean-Pierre Vernant.

Some things which appear to be superstitious are actually medically sound, and probably, Alexander was privy to Egyptian knowledge about cuts and incisions that only he would dare do.

A very quick scan of Arrian shows no less than fifteen recorded sacrifices - not including the daily offerings - before Alexander left for Siwah (and I'm sure I've missed a few others). These included sacrifices at the Danube; the Olympian games at Aegeae; the tomb of Protesilaos at Elaeus; a bull to Poseidon at the Hellespont; to Trojan Athena at Troy; to Priam at the altar of Zeus, also Troy; to Artemis at Ephesus; at Gordium, after the thunderstorm; to Ascelpius at Soli; to the local Athena at Magarus; to the dead and the hero Amphilochus at Mallus: to Tyrian Herakles at Tyre after the victory; at Gaza before the attempt to capture the city; to Apis at Memphis; and at the foundations of Alexandria.

Hmmm, I'm sure Alexander knew full well how to properly offer a victim for sacrifice without needing to ask guidance from Ammon.

Best regards,

[marcus]

Hmmm, I'm sure Alexander knew full well how to properly offer a victim for sacrifice without needing to ask guidance from Ammon.

Or from the Egyptians - there were plenty of Greeks who were perfectly aware of how to offer a sacrifice according to the Greek way, and had done so for hundreds of years. They were, after all, doing it in the Iliad ...

ATB

[Paralus]

G'day Jan.

Well now, the point having been severely beleaguered, not to say besieged, one thing that comes through somewhat clearly is Alexander's propensity for dismissing advice - good, bad and particularly, Parmenio proffered. I fail to see any reason for a headsrong monarch to wander out to Siwa for instruction in the making of sacfrifices he was quite capably performing already.

At the risk of belabouring the point, possibly Parmenio advised in Memphis that "Were I Alexander, I would need nor seek sacrificial instruction from any Siwa based Ammon."

We can see the king's response. Author's priveledge.

[dean]

Hello,

Yes, in the Iliad it is rife with sacrifices and libations and seers reading animals "innards"- more to reassure the army and give greater confidence- these were completely believed in. But not only were sacrifices important but also were signs and omens that were seen. Like the eagle picking up the snake in its beak.(forgotten where I read that one) Alexander allowed a Syrian woman to watch over his sleep whose prophesies all came true!!!!
Good God, bizarre or what??????


Best regards,
Dean

[amyntoros]

Good God, bizarre or what??????

Only if viewed by someone who isn't a believer in the "religion" of the period. (And not always then: Familiarity with the ancient beliefs can make some of the practices seem quite understandable and even comforting.) If you think about it, an atheist or a follower of a different religion who has never been exposed to Judaism or Christianity - unlikely as that may be - would probably find the practices of the church and the centuries of belief in the tales from the old and new testament to be equally bizarre.


Best regards,

[amyntoros]

I believe the papyrus in question is the Turin Judicial Papyrus; this contains the details of the Harem Conspiracy against Ramesses III (and I made a mistake -- Ramesses III belongs to the 20th Dynasty. He ruled from 1183-1152 BCE). However, the fragments I've been able to find online didn't mention the oracle. I'll look around, though, and see if I can find a more complete translation.

Hi Scott,

I've been remiss in answering this and I'm so sorry for the delay. Yes, if you find anything I'll be very grateful - this is much more your field than mine. It's the preparation of the priests of Ammon for the ritual of the oracle that interests me the most as it isn't to be found in any of the Greek sources. If it isn't in the Turin Judicial Papyrus then I imagine its in some other Egyptian text.

By the way, do you have a publication date for Memnon yet?

Best regards,

[Paralus]

[If you think about it, an atheist or a follower of a different religion who has never been exposed to Judaism or Christianity - unlikely as that may be - would probably find the practices of the church and the centuries of belief in the tales from the old and new testament to be equally bizarre.

Spot-on! Before anyone takes exception to the below, I am a Roman Catholic. Right, declarations out of the way...

I've often wondered what ET might think when, upon visiting our earth and seeing the great Christian cathederals, he is confronted by a god - or the son of a god - being worshipped by a congregation whose forebears crucified the object of worhip.

Better still, indulging in ritual symbolic cannibalism!

Good God, bizarre or what??????

[ScottOden]

By the way, do you have a publication date for Memnon yet?

Hi Amyntoros,

I'm still looking around for the papyrus containing the bit about the oracle (though I think it's located in one that was found with the Turin Judicial, but I don't have a name for it yet). There's a great resource online which contains quite a few translations of Egyptian papyri (and probably the one we're looking for) here: http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/texts/index.html.

Thanks for asking about Memnon! It's scheduled for publication in hardcover in August and should be available where ever fine books are sold A few weeks ago, it received a very nice review from Publishers Weekly. They called it "an eloquent and captivating historical thriller that chronicles the life of Memnon of Rhodes . . . a combination of vivid conjecture, deft plotting and graceful prose." As you might can tell, I'm rather excited

Also if you live in the UK, my first book, Men of Bronze, is going to be released in paperback on July 31st from Bantam. It's the story of the Persian invasion of Egypt in 525 BCE, from the point-of-view of a Phoenician mercenary.

Okay, that's enough self-promotion from me

Best,

Scott

[jan]

Oh Linda, I love it. I can always depend upon you to have all the sources at your fingertips. Thanks so much! I can't stop laughing yet! well, that ploy worked, didn't it? However, just as the egyptians know how to keep secrets, like nobody yet knows the secrets of the pyramids, so too does Alexander know how to keep secrets. I suppose that is why secret fraternities became so popular and are yet discussed today even. However, a Greek oracle would give Alexander the idea that he is truly invincible while an Egyptian oracle is the one that gives him the belief in his divinity, as his mother had believed and told him. It is like the combination of baptism and then confirmation in certain Christian faiths. I have undergone both baptism and confirmations! So too Alexander went from one oracle to another, and while one may know from elementary sacrifice, one may learn a secret for a more graduated sacrifice, a little like the difference between having a bachelor's degree, a master's degree, and finally, a doctorate! That is how I see the variation in oracles! Finally, Alexander has gone from being only invincible to assurance that he is GOD! PhD!