pothos.org

Hi Tre,You beat me to it - I had to read the thing about Macedonia not being a slave-owning culture about four times! IMHO probably Hammond's greatest error - it's the sort of thing you might expect Tarn to say... :-)I think that intercrural... ahem... ejaculation *was* common, although I would not say that it was any more so than... how to put it delicately... full penetration. I can't given you my reference for that, but there's definitely some good reference in the Oxford Classical Dictionary.All the bestMarcus

Hi Peter,Thanks for referring me to the BBC Spartans programme for the reference. I had no recollection of this, and I must have completely missed it when I was watching the series... but if the programme *did* indeed say that, I'm prepared to accept it. After all, nobody knows more about the Spartans than Paul Cartledge!I think you should try to be a bit more careful about what you write, however... or at least the way you write it. The beginning of your post was rather rude, to say the least!All the bestMarcus

Of course Marcus, what one puts on vases for display at dinner parties and what one practices, err, well, see Dover's book on Greek homosexuality. There is a discussion of course of how the erastes casts his eyes downward to perform this idealized sex act, which is in iteself a show of submission to his carnal desires and well, it's very interesting to say the least.i think Hammond gets the whole Macedonians didn't have slaves from that little thing where Alexander tripped over his tongue when he thought it was OK to give the Persian women wool to weave which naturally they found highly offensive to their stature. Cross-cultural boo boo and Alexander backpeddling to save face, but not to be taken as a testament that Macedonians did not have slaves.Regards,Tre

Hammond might have been influenced by the well-known quote from Demosthenes' Third Philippic:"...not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."John

Cheers, Tre. The stuff on Hammond made me laugh - I can see where he got his idea from, but it does seem very strange that he would have come to that conclusion, all the same.All the bestMarcus

I am aware of that quote, but Macedonians were often kidnapped and ended up as slaves on ships.

Hi everyoneAll this discussion reminds me of a story I heard Julian Clary (English, very camp comedian) about an encounter he had. After spending a night with a bloke picked up in a Greek night club, the next morning the mustachio'd gentleman wished to assert his identity to the well-satisfied Julian. "You're the gay one; I am not gay." Hmm. Masculine is *not* gay... I still find it odd how sometimes it is easier for people to envisage same-sex relations at a distance of thousands of years, but less easy in present day times. As someone once said, you can get away with anything in books or films as long as you put it in sandles. I sometimes think that the interest in same sex relation in ancient times is because things are so repressed and politicised in our own times. It is sanitised if you put it long ago...not so threatening, or challenging to stereotypes.Having said that, I don't think either of the film-makers will "pander to the pink dollar" - the Christian fundamentalist dollar is worth a lot more, sadly. But equally they know that they can't not acknowledge something which is accepted by most modern historians. And maybe they think it will make an interesting story.I know nothing about the Spartans. Linda

Peter,The standard age old question is Were You There?The old childhood story of how the story changes from the first person who is told the line to the second and on and on through the line still holds true today.People believe what they want to believe and what satisfies their own needs best. Dr. Joyce Brothers explained projection to a television audience once, and nowhere but in the world of sexuality is this proved more than once, and so it is obvious on this network that many are simply projecting their beliefs onto a historical person.On this very website is given the information that very little of the original histories exist at all. It is word of mouth, and each historian appears to select his or her historian according to his own needs and behavior.In Savill's book, she devotes an entire chapter to homosexuality in the times. It was taboo in both Roman and Greek communities as well, depending upon the author of the text one reads.By the way, were you there?Jan

I have stated repeatedly on this forum that I dont like art as evidence. I am prepared o conceed some ground on his one. When I was forced to do women's studies at uni we look at sexuality in general. We look at heaps of vase paintings which showed citizen type sex and i.e between the thighs and penetration with slaves. I dont really care what they did man on man but I dispise pedaphiles. However I am not going to sit in judgement of the ancients on this, it hurts my head. Thanks Light, you make me laugh. You really have injected some life back into the page.Greeting from Hades,
The Evil.

Accusations against Antony are possibly in Cicero's Philippics; propaganda pieces against him. I haven't read them as ploughing through Pro Milone for A Level left my thirst for Ciceronian waffle overquenched.