Perses ancestor of Persia

[Phalanx Pursos]

If I understand this correctly:

Acrisius king of Argos exiled his brother Proetus to Tiryns, because of this quarrel the Oracle of Delphi predicted his daughter Danaë would raise a son which would eventually kill Acrisius. Because Perseus murdered Acrisius, he was not allowed to become the heir of Argos anymore. Instead he traded Agros for Tiryns with his cousin Megapenthes which was Proetus's son, it was from Tiryns where Perseus built the city Mycenae and ruled over both cities.

Tiryns and Mycenae are both located in Argolis and Argos is probably the capital.

Andromeda was heir to Joppa in Aethiopia, so what if the Mycenaean era was actually the marriage between Aethiopia & Argolis ?

Mycenae as the new capital and cities such as; Tiryns, Halicarnassus, Tarsus, Joppa.

[Semiramis]

Hi Amyntoros,

Thank you for that excellent summary! I must get on to reading 'Babylon, Memphis, Persepolis: Eastern Contexts of Greek Culture' when not swamped by work. I know what you mean about feeling like a ten your old sometimes when reading these topics. Especially comparative linguistics etc. Apparently even most full-time classisists get stuck when it comes to this because one is expected to be proficient in both languages/cultures. This is part of the reason why I'm putting off reading the other volumes of 'Black Athena', because I'm simply in no position to judge the claims made about the roots of words etc...

Take care

[Phalanx Pursos]

Those who argue that Alexander's occupation of Persia must have left its mark on the native culture would surely agree.

Best regards,

The Persians plundered the Acropolis.

That was a serious crime towards the Greeks, the Greeks and Thracians had every right to be upset with the Darius dynasty from Persia. But the Greek states also had a reputation of utterly defeating the Persians in various battles, so I guess in those days if you really wanted to defeat the Greeks you had to be excellent like Alexander the great. Aristoteles was a recognised Greek philosopher, who lived not far from where Phillip II lived. Eventhough Alexander the great was Thracian, he still received classical Greek education from Aristoteles.

[Phoebus]

Wait, Alexander was Thracian?

[Phalanx Pursos]

Wait, Alexander was Thracian?

Macedonia is a Thracian province and Alexander had Thracians in his military
Thracian bronze helmet 4th century B.C., discovered in Kovachevitsa (Sofia)

[Phoebus]

Where are you getting that Macedon was a Thracian province from?

[Phalanx Pursos]

Where are you getting that Macedon was a Thracian province from?

Just look on geographic maps which still have all the old names, I've seen it so many times that Thrace is situated North of the Greek states. It's right next to the Black sea, other than that I can give you a quote from wikipedia; "Thracians inhabited the ancient provinces of: Thrace, Moesia, Dacia, Scythia Minor, Sarmatia, Bithynia, Mysia, Macedonia, Pannonia." Both the Greeks & Thracians were under Persian domination for many years, but it was eventually the Macedonians who abolished the entire Persian empire. Basically the Greek triumphantly beat the Persians, but eventually it was the Thracians who abolished the Persians. The Greeks were an ally to the Thracians during the war against Persia, the Macedonians took leadership position by force and took over Thrace, Greece & Persia. It was the Persian Empire which included; Anatolia, Phoenicia, Judea, Egypt, Assyria, Mesapotamia, Persia, India, so just by Alexander III attacking Darius III he practically also attacked the Anatolians, Phoenicians, Judeans, Egyptians, Syrians, Mesapotamians, Persians, Bactrias.

Alexander III of Macedon brought the fortunes of Ptolemy & Seleucus.

[Callisto]

Where are you getting that Macedon was a Thracian province from?

Just look on geographic maps which still have all the old names, I've seen it so many times that Thrace is situated North of the Greek states. It's right next to the Black sea, other than that I can give you a quote from wikipedia; "Thracians inhabited the ancient provinces of: Thrace, Moesia, Dacia, Scythia Minor, Sarmatia, Bithynia, Mysia, Macedonia, Pannonia." Both the Greeks & Thracians were under Persian domination for many years, but it was eventually the Macedonians who abolished the entire Persian empire.

Ancient sources clearly distinguish between Thrace and Macedonia. The best you could claim to a connection between Thrace and Macedonia goes as back as the pre-history of the region, at the time Macedonia was called Emathia and was populated primarily by the Phrygians, Mysians, etc. But again this was before the earliest Macedonians conquered this land.

[Phoebus]

What Callisto said. I'm sorry, Pursos, but that idea--that Alexander was Thracian, or that even a significant number of Macedonians were Thracian--simply does not reconcile with the surviving evidence.

The Macedonians and the Thracians were ethnically, culturally, and linguistically distinct people. Alexander's parentage had nothing to do with Thrace.

[Phalanx Pursos]

Ancient sources clearly distinguish between Thrace and Macedonia.

I told you.

Thrace & Macedon are both Thracian states, not Greek. Alexander the great had many Thracians in his army, so it were the Thracians who abolished the Persians.

You people should know what a Greek helmet looks like !

Do you call this a Greek helmet ?
Thracian bronze helmet 4th century B.C., discovered in Kovachevitsa (Sofia)

I call it Thracian, have you ever seen a Thracian sword ?

Oh...
#3 - Thracian "mahajra", found near the village of Sofronievo, Vraca district (VII-VI c.BC). Regional Museum of History - Vraca

They look so Macedonian don't they ?
Well how do you think that happened ?

Because it's not Greek, like the title says...

It's Thracian.

[marcus]

Ancient sources clearly distinguish between Thrace and Macedonia.

I told you.

Thrace & Macedon are both Thracian states, not Greek. Alexander the great had many Thracians in his army, so it were the Thracians who abolished the Persians.

You people should know what a Greek helmet looks like !

Do you call this a Greek helmet ?
Thracian bronze helmet 4th century B.C., discovered in Kovachevitsa (Sofia)

I call it Thracian, have you ever seen a Thracian sword ?

Oh...
#3 - Thracian "mahajra", found near the village of Sofronievo, Vraca district (VII-VI c.BC). Regional Museum of History - Vraca

They look so Macedonian don't they ?
Well how do you think that happened ?

Because it's not Greek, like the title says...

It's Thracian.

Sorry, I think you need to concede on this one. Alexander was most definitely not Thracian. Using a style of helmet as evidence doesn't wash.

ATB

[Phoebus]

I told you.

You told us wrong.

Thrace & Macedon are both Thracian states, not Greek.

I'm sorry, but you are simply wrong. The Thracians were a different people from the Macedonians or from the rest of the Hellenic-speaking populations. I'm not sure what you really need to hear on this subject.

Alexander the great had many Thracians in his army, so it were the Thracians who abolished the Persians.

The Thracians were hardly a fraction of the army. Diodorus, for example, tells us that only 900 of them were part of the initial expedition (IIRC). That's 900 out of over 40,000.

If anything, it was Phillip II who conquered/controlled large parts of Thrace prior to his death; not the other way around.

You people should know what a Greek helmet looks like !

We do.

Do you call this a Greek helmet ?
Thracian bronze helmet 4th century B.C., discovered in Kovachevitsa (Sofia)

I call it Thracian, ...

It's a Phrygian-, not Thracian-, style helmet--of a sort that saw far more service among soldiers of Macedon, the Seleucid empire, Athens, etc., than it did among the Thracians.

have you ever seen a Thracian sword ?

Oh...
#3 - Thracian "mahajra", found near the village of Sofronievo, Vraca district (VII-VI c.BC). Regional Museum of History - Vraca

I'm not sure what that proves. The term machaira (μαχαιρα) is a Hellenic one, used to denote a variety of swords. Just because you pasted pictures of supposedly Thracian swords doesn't mean that the Macedonians themselves used them.

[Callisto]

I told you.

Thrace & Macedon are both Thracian states, not Greek. Alexander the great had many Thracians in his army, so it were the Thracians who abolished the Persians.

I am sorry. Simply by Telling sth, doesnt make it true.

Alexander having a certain number of Thracians into his army, doesnt make it true. Its as futile as someone to claim that just because his army consisted also of Illyrians, he was an Illyrian.

I also fail to grasp how a Thracian bronze helmet of 4th century found in Sofia proves somehow your point.

Macedonians wore a Phrygian helmet which eventhough it was similar in general form to the Thracian helmet, yet they were different.

Machaira was used by a variety of people in antiquity. Still i dont find how this backs up your claim.

[Phalanx Pursos]

Macedonians wore a Phrygian helmet which eventhough it was similar in general form to the Thracian helmet, yet they were different.

"Herodotus recorded the Macedonian account that Phrygians emigrated into Asia Minor from Thrace"
"(stating that the Illyrians lived beyond Macedonia and Thrace, from Chaonia and Thesprotia to the Danube River)

End of discussion.

[Callisto]

Macedonians wore a Phrygian helmet which eventhough it was similar in general form to the Thracian helmet, yet they were different.

"Herodotus recorded the Macedonian account that Phrygians emigrated into Asia Minor from Thrace"
"(stating that the Illyrians lived beyond Macedonia and Thrace, from Chaonia and Thesprotia to the Danube River)

End of discussion.

Actually again you fail to provide sth that supports your initial claim. Herodotus explicitly states what was later called as Macedonia was populated primarily by the Phrygians (or Briges). He says nowhere Macedonians were Thracians themselves.

The dress of the Phrygians was, with a few small differences, like the Paphlagonian. This people, according to the Macedonian account, were known as Briges during the period when they were Europeans and lived in Macedonia, and changed their name at the same time as, by migrating to Asia, they changed their country.”

(Herod. 7.73)

For more about ancient geography of Macedonia check out the account of Strabo.