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Paralus Hail

Your spot on with everything you have said and will go as far as to say I stand with you here. I read many books years ago about the Splendours and magnificents of the Ancient Greeks. The more you read other sources and get to the nitty gritty you come to the conclusions that you have made.

Initially I admired the Greeks with my journey to Alexander beggining with the movie 300 Spartans I thought hey heros etc etc. But the more you read I realised just how petty and Jeuvenile the Greeks really were. The following centuries I guess Leonidas would spin in his grave. He amde the ultimate sacrifice for a cause. Yet the cause was quickly forgotton as soon as these turn coats started taking Persian Gold to turn over so called fellow Greeks. Achilles a real Mythological hero I wonder just how the image of Him Echoes with the real Greeks would he have the same distain for the Greeks as he did for Agamemnon im pretty sure he would.

As far as Alexander been proud about his so called Greek connection as Paralus said he only did it to suite his own personal Ambition and glory. Alexander would have alied himself to a group of nuns if it served his personal gains.

As for the Opening of the Olympis if Alexander was up there watching im sure he would have a little chuckle knowing how much the Greeks hated him his own times. Yet today the Greeks have hijacked Alexander for there own glory wich to be fair is pretty weak. The only Glory Greece has ever had was when the 2 Great Macedonians were bossing them.

The Greeks were always easy to control with money due to how they were totally backstabbing and divided.

Im English and have started to lay Claim to William Wallace as an English hero. Due totally to the Mel Gibson Fabrication Moveie

Paralus Hail you got the nail on the head and the Greeks are blinkered and cant accept it

Kenny

What became of the delete?

we don't need three of the same? Where's the delete??

jasonxx wrote:Im English and have started to lay Claim to William Wallace as an English hero. Due totally to the Mel Gibson Fabrication Moveie

Ha ha haa! Well, that's one way to put it! Don't know as I'd have said in quite the phraseology you've used, but, that's about it.

G'day Kenny!

The Greek city states were nothing if not fiercely independent, and, belligerent about it into the bargain. These nation states ran their own "foreign policy" and dealt with each other as nations deal with each other today. The "autonomy of the cities" was ever the catch-cry. Nice sentiments, but sentiments only when political expediency and avarice combined with decent armaments to delineate just how far that autonomy extended.

The heretofore "backward" kingdom of Macedonia was a northern backwater to be played off politically in the interminable internecine squabbles of the "great" nation states to its south. It was particularly useful to Athenian interests where it was alternately bludgeoned, courted and abused for shipbuilding timber and leverage in that state's never ending psychosis called Amphipolis. Chaeronea might be seen as just deserts.

As to the mainland states and their bastardry towards the Greek cities of Asia Minor, one could write chapter and verse on their history as the hapless hams of hegemony. That story – which really picks up after the Egyptian disaster of 455/4 – gets a kick along when (in 431), before an oar has cut hostile water, the Spartans plan to ask the King for aid and money (Thuc 1.82.) In 425 (after Pylos) it seems the Spartans had been quite busy sending embassies to the King (Thuc 1.50.2). It really got down and dirty from 412 onwards. By 366, the Great King is deciding to whom Amphipolis belonged. As it turned out, he gave it to Athens. In the event they didn't (yet again) take hold of it and just when they thought they might, along came Philip II of that erstwhile backwater. Further irony.

I could prattle on all night about the mainland Greeks perfidy towards the Aegean and Asiatic Greeks and the conga-line of crawlers courting Persian munificence and favour (asking that the Great King impose – yet another – general peace with their state as hegemon) that so defined Greek-Persian relations from about 412 down to Alexander. A little outside the gambit of this forum, though, I’d suppose. Possibly of little interest as well.

the Athenians hated Sparta and Sparta hated Athens more than those two hated Macdonia.
But we don't claim that the Spartans or the Athenians were not Greeks. Do we?

The Greeks my friends had differences and rivalries but always allied against an outer threat because they knew that the things they had in common were more than the rest. (see Aristotle's definition of 'nation').

I hear one of you is English. I know why you try to undermine everything Greek, man.
Some human skeletons from 600 AD were found in your Island and had human remnants in their vuvonic area. Try and be more respectful when you speak of nation that had achieved so much in the historic area we scrutinize in this forum, when a thousand years later there were cannibals in Britain.

For God shake try and compare the Greek civilization with the other civilizations existed at that point of history. Do not compare it with the 'perfect' world you have in your mind. Cause that has never occured in human history. Even today the civilized world is more corrupted and injust than the one in classical Greece.

Paralus wrote:

alexanthros wrote: It would be much better for you and for me to have this debate after you visit Pella. ok?

I'm fine with that. Seeing the ruins, the tumulus and its museum will little change my view I'd think.

By the day you have visited Pella you will know if you have visited a sight of ancient Greek city or a barbaric one.

Everyone is what he believes he is. I am Greek but it is possible if we could search my lineage that my ancestors werent. That doesnt mean though i am not Greek because i was raised as a Greek and i am willing to fight for my country if i have to.
The same is for Alexander, he was born and raised as a greek with greek education.
And lets not forget Alexander I of Macedon who gave tips before the battle of Plataea, competed in the Olympic games, and slaughtered the rest of the persian army at Strymon river.

"For I (Alexander I) myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery." (Herod. IX, 45, 2 [Loeb])

"Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy (Alexander I) of Macedonia has received you hospitably." (Herod. V, 20, 4 [Loeb])

The country by the sea which is now called Macedonia... Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his forefathers, who were originally Temenidae from Argos"
(Thucydides 99,3 (Loeb, C F Smith)

"But Alexander (I), proving himself to be an Argive, was judged to be a Greek;
so he contended in the furlong race and ran a dead heat for first place."
(Herod. V, 22, 2)

The speech of Alexander I, when he was admitted to the Olympic games "Men of Athens...
Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Hellas I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself Hellene by descent, and I would not willingly see Hellas exchange freedom for slavery....
If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Hellenic cause, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians.
I am Alexander of Macedon."
(Herodotus, The Histories, 9.45)

Wow I dont at all. And I admit the English History is as mirky and filthy as much as it is now. A borgoius ruling class Creaming off the Prolaritariate.

Just one Instance History Celebrates the Heroic British Sailors that defeated the Spanish Armada. Yet it dont get much of a mention that those self same sailors were left to Rot and die on the ships rather than pay them what was owed.

What is annoying as a person and Idmirer of Alexander I dont like the hipocritical way that the Greeks have ambushed his name and glory. And one final point is this and I would welcome a reply . If Macedon was and is Greek. then why is it today that only the part of Macedon that was primary to Alexanders and Philip. Pella etc is included in modern Greece and the rest is not.

If it were not for Alexanders glory I would wager it would all be allowed to the northern Balkahns.

Kenny

Yet today the Greeks have hijacked Alexander for there own glory wich to be fair is pretty weak

Wow there Kenny.You need to get things straight.First of all, did you find out what i asked you some posts ago?Meaning the definition of a Greek?Let me help you:

Greeks were the people that shared similar customs, the Greek language and it's dialects, and the same religion.That was the definition more or less.Greece geographicly was the entire Greek peninsula and the islands,plus Asia minor which was inhabitted by Greeks long before the Persians came there.If you open a map you will see that the Greek peninusla is somewhat defined by it's own natural borders.Except from the north.It is sea to the left, sea to the right, se to the south and there is landmass only to the north, above Macedonia.

Macedonia was part of the Greek world because they shared similar customs, language and religion.North of Macedonia were various tribes that did not share the same customs,language and religion.So the borders of the Greek world were up to there.

Macedonia was a kingdom in contrast with the rest of the Greek cities, that were smaller autonomus city states.That's why they saw Macedonia a little bit differently, but not seperately from the Greek world.As Parauls said ,the Athenians saw no differently the Spartans, from the Macedonians.The Spartans were the enemy.They occupied Athens.As the macedonians did.

And who would say who is a Greek and who is not.The Athenians named themselves Greeks.So did the others.And so did Alexander.The original Greeks were the Myrmidones from Thessaly.

And let's not repeat again that the very center of the Greek religion, mount Olympus, was and is at Macedonia.

But Kenny, and Paralus, you pointed out some of the faults that the ancient Greeks had.Surely, they had faults.Who hasnt? One was that they kept fighting eachother.They still do.After 1821 when the Greeks gained their freedom from the Turks, they got into civil war. Again, after WWII the Greeks got into civil war.It was the communists and the rest.But i dont think these faults are only a Greek priviledge.Lets remember the Americans shall we?North and South?Remember?Or maybe the Americans tried to copy the Greeks in some manners ,like in their political system, and they also copied their faults?Or maybe these faults are global characteristics of men.

But i dont want to be graphic and say that: when the Greeks had cholesterol the rest were hanging from the trees catching fruits.Or when the Athenians were gathering at the barber shops to discuss, and goship, the other european tribes didnt even shave themselves or had haircuts, didnt discuss and were living at huts.

So who were these Greeks Kenny?

Im English and have started to lay Claim to William Wallace as an English hero. Due totally to the Mel Gibson Fabrication Moveie Shocked

It's not the same thing.The Scots were Celts.A totally different tribe from the Aglosaxons.The Celts were there long before the Aglosaxons came.Macedonians were there in the Greek peninsula along with the rest of the Greeks.So the british are actually trying to claim a hero as their own , that was of a different nationality.But Alexander was of no different nationality.

And that leads us to how and when the Greeks were forming a common national conciousness.As Plato and other have said, the Greeks knew that they were the same people.Since they were living in the same area, under common culture,language and religion.The fact that they were fighting eachother does not cancel this.They united when they were to fight a common enemy that was about to invade to the Greek peninsula, and of course lets not forget that they united during the Olympic Games.And during the games, all wars between them stopped.Macedonian Kings even long before Philip were taking part in the Olympic games.

So was Aristotle considered as a foreigner, a barbarian and not a Greek?Was Eyripedes?They were Macedonians werent they?Or didnt you know that Kenny?

How can people that have Greek names, they believe in the Greek gods,they speak Greek or a Greek dialect, and were born in the Greek peninsula not being Greeks.

And now about Alexander:

Surely he was calculative about some things.But saying that he claimed to be a Greek only for getting what he wanted out of the rest of the Greeks is ridiculous.He didnt need the rest of the Greeks for his campaign.But still he had 7.000 of them in his army.And that because the rest of the city states opposed the Macedonians.There would be more otherwise.

I suggest Kenny that you go and see some pictures of Macedonia.Of Pella, of the tombs, of the buildings, e.t.c.Of the inscriptions too.Everything is Greek.Not barbaric.And Macedonians had Greek buildings before Philip too.So lets not say that Philip hellenized Macedonia.It is ridiculous.Philip just modernized Macedonia.He taught them new fighting styles, and tried to open Macedonia a little bit to new things from the south, like new theatrical plays e.t.c.Macedonia was a more closed Kingdom until then.As were the Spartans that wouldnt let anything inside that would corrupt their ways.

And it wasnt the modern greeks that hijacked Alexander.No one hijacked Alexander.Remember Plutarch?He was a big admirer of Alexander.So were many others.The Greeks started to accept Alexander's Greatness some time after ,and mainly after the Romans occupied Greece.Because it was then that the Macedonian occupation stopped.

And one final point is this and I would welcome a reply . If Macedon was and is Greek. then why is it today that only the part of Macedon that was primary to Alexanders and Philip. Pella etc is included in modern Greece and the rest is not.

Firstly, there is not "if". Macedon was Greek.Why now, a part of Macedonia is not within Greek territory?Well, because after the liberation was from the Turks, Greece was a small country and mainly other people like England,Italy and France decided which would be Greek territories and which not.In Northen Macedonia Bulgaria and Yugoslavia were formed, and then Albania.The Greeks got Thessaloniki in 1912 after their own efforts.And of course these people didnt decide which territories would be Greek according to history, but according to their interests.Furthermore Tito, who formed Yugoslavia brought down from the north massive populations of slavs and send the Greek populations out.

That is why.

P.S: About heroes:

You are right.There werent many heroes after Leonidas.There were, but not many.But there were a lot of heroes at 1821 and after.Must i remind you what Winston Churchill said? "Heroes fight like Greeks"

Heroes.

Who are the real heroes. The real heroes are the faceless numbers who get conned into fighting. As Brad Pitt says in Troy. Dont throw your life away following some fools orders.

The politicians and leaders get the credit as heroes. I would say people are wisening up to the idea. Of war liberty and fighting. So many millions throughout history have fought and been slaughtered under the pretext. Of Freedom Demacracy and Liberty. All a nasty smoke screen for Capitalist gain and control. Indeed there are some heroic leaders Alexander in a way at least he was at the front and not miles behind ardering people to sacrifice.

The Graveyards and the battlefields throughout history have been liitered with dead heroes. We got the example of fighting Napoleon for freedom Etc. Napoleon was no real threat to the common English man minding his busness. The upper class money people were the ones worried the spoon fed aristocratic pussies who needed the English Soldier behind the muscet to preserve there privalegded way of life.

kenny

Jason, do you like Marx?

Do I like Marx?

I dont know much about Marxism. Etc I only know what I see and the whole mirky idea the world of Democracy etc is represented. I believe Democracy doesnt nor did it ever exist. Its a pretty word Politicians and rulers use now and again to pacify the masses, to gain support and votes and once in power Democracy goes out the window and were back to bollox to the masses and do what you are told

The Greeks gave us the idea of Democracy and Polis but realistically my friend the whole concept is Utopia just an illusion.If we ever did get Democracy maybe we would get the controlers bankers etc for once doing some right and just things. Dont hold your breath

You know I see famine.child prostitution in the far east. Child sex sites on the internet and even the odd genocide here and there. No power does anything about it. yet if the oil supplies are threatened we get the billions of pounds or war machinery put into action to protect it.

Though Alexander was a war man and fighter I would hope he was a greater man than these back room boys who dont care less about the suffering around today

kenny

alexanthros wrote:[By the day you have visited Pella you will know if you have visited a sight of ancient Greek city or a barbaric one.

Now, before this becomes more ridiculous than it has already become, let's settle one or two issues.

Alexanthros, should you persist in misreading –on the evidence, deliberately – what has been written there will be little point in continuing a discussion after I visit Pella. You might do me the favour, Alexanthros, of pointing out exactly where it is that I state "Alexander was not Greek; Macedonians were not Greek". And, to forestall any other silliness, you'll note the past tense. I'll help you out, my shout:

"Macedonia was just as much an outside entity to the Greek city states as each was to the other - more so in fact. There was rarely any "Hellenism" or "Greekness" evinced unless there was an outside catalyst."

This from a response to Kenny's Italian metaphor. I will make this plain as day. It was to show that – much as the Latin tribes resented the Roman heel and considered them "outsiders" – so the city states considered Macedon. The rest of what I have written deals with the sedulous sacrificing of the Greeks of Asia Minor by self aggrandising mainland Greek states.

From this, you – and you only – have decided the whole discussion is whether or not Alexander was Greek and have launched into all the regularly trotted out lines on lineage. It is you who raise the issue of βάρβαρος.

Again, it is a matter of the perception of the time – not from our modern perspective. The city states resisted all attempts at poltical and military subjugation. The cities of Boeotia resisted the political dominance of Thebes and Thebes resisted (with Athens) the dominance of Macedon. Macedonia was viewed as a different animal, again not least for the fact that it was one man.

That politicians in the southern Greek states used the term βάρβαρος.is indicative that some at the time thought that way. There is no use for the word in political propaganda if it did not resonate with a reasonable rump of the listening audience.

As to Alexander, he most definitely was, in the very least, disliked in his time (hated would be better) by the Greeks (as was his father) and for a long time after. Any respect he was accorded by the Greeks came from their abject military emasculation and the delightful example of Thebes.

Macedonian rule - by main force - was hated.

Hi Kenny,
I don't see anything wrong with the analogy of the Italian empire thing.
Without wishing to rattle anyone's cage, I would say that it is curious how the greatest empire of the whole lot was the British empire covering about 25% of the world's land surface.- and that the name embraced the country as opposed to the capital town.

Best regards,
Dean

dean wrote:... it is curious how the greatest empire of the whole lot was the British empire covering about 25% of the world's land surface.- and that the name embraced the country as opposed to the capital town.

Yes. As Spock would say:"Fascinating".

Curious also that it was not ever the "English Empire". Aparrently the Scots, Welsh and Irish played no part. They simply provided conscripted levies when required.

The "League of Glasgow" ??