History (truth) and Historians (perceivers of truth)

[Athanasios]

Hi there Paralus,Sound argument, with which I am in agreement.However, a little observation on music will highlgiht that the choice of instrument is not so critical to the ambience of the sound. For example, if you take people of the mountains, wherever they be, they have a preference for wind instruments. Consider the pan-pipes of the Andes, or the clarinet of the Pindus (even though the clarinet can be added to new instruments, like the piano and guitar, that have taken over a local instrument). You than have music of the plains - listen to the similarities of the string instruments being played in Andalucia, USA or India. Perhaps diversity of sound, but a reflection of the environment in wich the people are brought up...Which leads on to historians. They will indeed perceive history through the moral eyes of their time, people and interests. That will lead to propaganda, exaggeration and omission.Regards,
Atha

[Athanasios]

Hi there Paralus,Sound argument, with which I am in agreement.However, a little observation on music will highlgiht that the choice of instrument is not so critical to the ambience of the sound. For example, if you take people of the mountains, wherever they be, they have a preference for wind instruments. Consider the pan-pipes of the Andes, or the clarinet of the Pindus (even though the clarinet can be added to new instruments, like the piano and guitar, that have taken over a local instrument). You than have music of the plains - listen to the similarities of the string instruments being played in Andalucia, USA or India. Perhaps diversity of sound, but a reflection of the environment in wich the people are brought up...Which leads on to historians. They will indeed perceive history through the moral eyes of their time, people and interests. That will lead to propaganda, exaggeration and omission.Regards,
Atha

[Paralus]

G'day Athanasios. Or, given Sydney time, good morning!Agreed. I think you make my point GÇô only somewhat more elegantly. My "prose" (if it could be termed such) is possibly a little direct GÇô few rounded edges. Ever the same I'm afraid, even when in school and I questioned the ancient history master over the Sicilian expedition (my view being the Athenians always had the design and the desire GÇô the latter fuelled by grain and money, his being the traditional sixties/seventies view of stupid imperialism).I don't often have the time to compose these posts as I'd like: I'm on the other side of the world to most (if not all) who post here and so often draft before leaving home or when at work. At home the family (including a nine and seven year old GÇô why did I wait until forty to have children?) takes precedence. So here I am at one thirty in the morning with timeGǪsuch as it is.That's a round-a-bout of saying that my metaphor of the instrument was not as well written as I had it conceived in my head. We are left with four main Alexander sources. These are written well after the events they describe. They are all written with a purpose/slant. Arrian's is declared: he is to literature as Alexander is to warfare. Say no more as Eric Idle would say. Curtius is the great extender. A greater drama queen of an historian would be difficult to find. Diodorus is (as I've peddled before) the archetypal Christian monk: copying and bending anyone that recorded anything before him. And last GÇô but certainly not least GÇô Plutarch: the man whose declared objective was to discover the "virtue" in his heroes lives (or the lack thereof).They are all different. Just as are instruments (you obviously play?). I well remember being the age of my son (nine) and sitting my "piano forte" exam (second) and wondering who the hell invented a piano. The original metaphor was that all cultures have music. In the absolute there exist commonalities. But GÇô and there is a but GÇô there is a large and distinct difference between "East" and "West". This is in large part due to the instruments available to make (moderator: why can't we italicise and hyperlink?) that music.That gulf also exists between "East" and "Greek" (West) reporting of Greco-Persian relations. The problem we have is that the only fulsome written (italics) sources we have are Western (Greek) and they are GÇô more than on the whole GÇô laudatory and apologetic.
Philosophical Paralus.

[Paralus]

G'day Athanasios. Or, given Sydney time, good morning!Agreed. I think you make my point GÇô only somewhat more elegantly. My "prose" (if it could be termed such) is possibly a little direct GÇô few rounded edges. Ever the same I'm afraid, even when in school and I questioned the ancient history master over the Sicilian expedition (my view being the Athenians always had the design and the desire GÇô the latter fuelled by grain and money, his being the traditional sixties/seventies view of stupid imperialism).I don't often have the time to compose these posts as I'd like: I'm on the other side of the world to most (if not all) who post here and so often draft before leaving home or when at work. At home the family (including a nine and seven year old GÇô why did I wait until forty to have children?) takes precedence. So here I am at one thirty in the morning with timeGǪsuch as it is.That's a round-a-bout of saying that my metaphor of the instrument was not as well written as I had it conceived in my head. We are left with four main Alexander sources. These are written well after the events they describe. They are all written with a purpose/slant. Arrian's is declared: he is to literature as Alexander is to warfare. Say no more as Eric Idle would say. Curtius is the great extender. A greater drama queen of an historian would be difficult to find. Diodorus is (as I've peddled before) the archetypal Christian monk: copying and bending anyone that recorded anything before him. And last GÇô but certainly not least GÇô Plutarch: the man whose declared objective was to discover the "virtue" in his heroes lives (or the lack thereof).They are all different. Just as are instruments (you obviously play?). I well remember being the age of my son (nine) and sitting my "piano forte" exam (second) and wondering who the hell invented a piano. The original metaphor was that all cultures have music. In the absolute there exist commonalities. But GÇô and there is a but GÇô there is a large and distinct difference between "East" and "West". This is in large part due to the instruments available to make (moderator: why can't we italicise and hyperlink?) that music.That gulf also exists between "East" and "Greek" (West) reporting of Greco-Persian relations. The problem we have is that the only fulsome written (italics) sources we have are Western (Greek) and they are GÇô more than on the whole GÇô laudatory and apologetic.
Philosophical Paralus.

[Athanasios]

Hi there Paralus,Seeing you there burning both ends of the candle reminds me of me as I too have a children (one aged five; second due this May). I know how hard it is to find time for yourself when you are so busy being an employee/hsband/father. Despite that, your posts are extremely well thought through and written...It is I that usually err and struggle to make a point.Yes, I have played musical instruments in the past, no prodigal son by any stretch of the imagination. Nonetheless, enough to appreciate music, for which I am eternally grateful.True: the structure of Western and Eastern music is entirely different, i.e. octave against the pentave. Also, the polarisation of East and West was definitely evident at the time of the Greco-Persian conflicts. Conflicts? Here I am using a PR word for...wars!Interestingly enough, it was the lack of food availability that allowed democracy to flourish in Athens and, for sure, the wealth of the Persian Empire, which encompaased the entire Mesopotamian basin, would defintely have propelled extension into Asia. Sicily, of course, to which you refer to, being the BIG DREAM for most Greeks, not seen on such a scale again until the American dream of the early 20th C. Anyway, my thoughts are waving, and it is only 1630hrs. I leave you to get some sleep with one final thought now that we are on food security:Give a new born baby some sugar solution and they will immediately take a liking to it. We have 'the famine gene' inprinted in all of us. It is estimated that 40M people were involved in the slave trade, primarily driven by our [Western] desire for white gold.Regards,
Atha

[Athanasios]

Hi there Paralus,Seeing you there burning both ends of the candle reminds me of me as I too have a children (one aged five; second due this May). I know how hard it is to find time for yourself when you are so busy being an employee/hsband/father. Despite that, your posts are extremely well thought through and written...It is I that usually err and struggle to make a point.Yes, I have played musical instruments in the past, no prodigal son by any stretch of the imagination. Nonetheless, enough to appreciate music, for which I am eternally grateful.True: the structure of Western and Eastern music is entirely different, i.e. octave against the pentave. Also, the polarisation of East and West was definitely evident at the time of the Greco-Persian conflicts. Conflicts? Here I am using a PR word for...wars!Interestingly enough, it was the lack of food availability that allowed democracy to flourish in Athens and, for sure, the wealth of the Persian Empire, which encompaased the entire Mesopotamian basin, would defintely have propelled extension into Asia. Sicily, of course, to which you refer to, being the BIG DREAM for most Greeks, not seen on such a scale again until the American dream of the early 20th C. Anyway, my thoughts are waving, and it is only 1630hrs. I leave you to get some sleep with one final thought now that we are on food security:Give a new born baby some sugar solution and they will immediately take a liking to it. We have 'the famine gene' inprinted in all of us. It is estimated that 40M people were involved in the slave trade, primarily driven by our [Western] desire for white gold.Regards,
Atha

[amyntoros]

****That gulf also exists between "East" and "Greek" (West) reporting of Greco-Persian relations. The problem we have is that the only fulsome written (italics) sources we have are Western (Greek) and they are GÇô more than on the whole GÇô laudatory and apologetic.****

Very true, Paralus, and more. I recently found an article on the web which illustrates how bias can actually originate in other cultures and then be filtered through the surviving Greek sources: The Legend of the Egyptian Coronation of Alexander the Great by Andrew Monson, Institute of Archaeology, University College London. Although this article is primarily concerned with the Romance (the only reference we have for Alexander's coronation), Monson's discussion of source evidence is excellent, especially as he uses archaeological findings for support. And most interesting of all, he states that Cambyses' murder of the Apis bull, used so often to illustrate Alexander's superiority to the Persians, was actually *Egyptian* propaganda recorded by Herodotus! First time I ever heard that!!http://web.archive.org/web/200102102238 ... Monson.htm". . . Extending the comparison of Cambyses with Alexander, it shows that both conquerors found enemies in Egypt who were hostile to their imposition. Herodotus relates Cambyses' murder of the Apis bull and persecution of the Egyptians for celebrating the Apis festival after his military defeat in Nubia. Cambyses' reduction of revenues for many temples, recorded on the verso of the Demotic Chronicle, is commonly thought to have angered the Egyptian priests who fabricated this propaganda. Their sentiments highlight the tension that underlies Udjahorresnet's testimony of collaboration, which can only demonstrate Cambyses' legitimacy for a privileged minority."This makes sense to me as I never quite believed the Persians would be ignorant or stupid enough to actually kill one of the "gods" of a conquered people.The rest of the article is definitely worth reading. :-)Best regards,Amyntoros

[amyntoros]

****That gulf also exists between "East" and "Greek" (West) reporting of Greco-Persian relations. The problem we have is that the only fulsome written (italics) sources we have are Western (Greek) and they are GÇô more than on the whole GÇô laudatory and apologetic.****

Very true, Paralus, and more. I recently found an article on the web which illustrates how bias can actually originate in other cultures and then be filtered through the surviving Greek sources: The Legend of the Egyptian Coronation of Alexander the Great by Andrew Monson, Institute of Archaeology, University College London. Although this article is primarily concerned with the Romance (the only reference we have for Alexander's coronation), Monson's discussion of source evidence is excellent, especially as he uses archaeological findings for support. And most interesting of all, he states that Cambyses' murder of the Apis bull, used so often to illustrate Alexander's superiority to the Persians, was actually *Egyptian* propaganda recorded by Herodotus! First time I ever heard that!!http://web.archive.org/web/200102102238 ... Monson.htm". . . Extending the comparison of Cambyses with Alexander, it shows that both conquerors found enemies in Egypt who were hostile to their imposition. Herodotus relates Cambyses' murder of the Apis bull and persecution of the Egyptians for celebrating the Apis festival after his military defeat in Nubia. Cambyses' reduction of revenues for many temples, recorded on the verso of the Demotic Chronicle, is commonly thought to have angered the Egyptian priests who fabricated this propaganda. Their sentiments highlight the tension that underlies Udjahorresnet's testimony of collaboration, which can only demonstrate Cambyses' legitimacy for a privileged minority."This makes sense to me as I never quite believed the Persians would be ignorant or stupid enough to actually kill one of the "gods" of a conquered people.The rest of the article is definitely worth reading. :-)Best regards,Amyntoros

[Athanasios]

Amyntoros,I first read this in Holland's 'Persian Fire'. It claims that the Persians would not have been so foolish as to shun the Egyptian [Gods] by murdering the Apis Bull. Imagine what a dimplomatic suicide that would be!Out of interest: has anyone else read this book? I found it most intriguing, well written and refreshing as it does exactly that, consider the Greco-Persian wars from the view of the Persians. Not only were they respopnsible for conquering what would be the first Global Empire, but they were the first to wage a religious war [against the Greeks].Regards,
AthaRegards,
Atha

[Athanasios]

Amyntoros,I first read this in Holland's 'Persian Fire'. It claims that the Persians would not have been so foolish as to shun the Egyptian [Gods] by murdering the Apis Bull. Imagine what a dimplomatic suicide that would be!Out of interest: has anyone else read this book? I found it most intriguing, well written and refreshing as it does exactly that, consider the Greco-Persian wars from the view of the Persians. Not only were they respopnsible for conquering what would be the first Global Empire, but they were the first to wage a religious war [against the Greeks].Regards,
AthaRegards,
Atha

[Paralus]

G'morning Atahanasios.You are not allowed down time! I am up because I am unmolested - for want of a better term.
You are dead to right about the polarisation between the ancient East and West. Without drawing exaggerated parallels, the nearest modern example (aside from the asinine US v Russia) is India and the British (allowing for the fact that Greece was never properly "conquered" by Persia GÇô though Macedonia certainly was). As with Alexander GÇô and his marshals after him GÇô the Indians simply assumed the ruling system as their own. Same master, different colour (or nationality in the case of Alexander)"Interestingly enough, it was the lack of food availability that allowed democracy to flourish in Athens"Worry not about how you perceive your struggle to convey a point. Bang on. It was the lack of being able to support the population of Attica that drove Athens' foreign policy throughout antiquity. It was this that lead to the disastrous Egyptian expedition in 454 which owed little to a Persian war whose end was found at the mouth of the Eurymedon some ten years hence GÇô other that nice propaganda GÇô and much to Pericles' expansionist, economic policies. Grain sources were to ancient Athens what oil sources are to current [ http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/stev ... 63,00.html ] "non imperial" powers.The famine gene will mutate.
Given it's 04:10, I'll hit the "fart sack" and check back when the outside temperature's some 35 degrees centigrade (about 10:00). Just need a way to connect from the pool....

Paralus

[Paralus]

G'morning Atahanasios.You are not allowed down time! I am up because I am unmolested - for want of a better term.
You are dead to right about the polarisation between the ancient East and West. Without drawing exaggerated parallels, the nearest modern example (aside from the asinine US v Russia) is India and the British (allowing for the fact that Greece was never properly "conquered" by Persia GÇô though Macedonia certainly was). As with Alexander GÇô and his marshals after him GÇô the Indians simply assumed the ruling system as their own. Same master, different colour (or nationality in the case of Alexander)"Interestingly enough, it was the lack of food availability that allowed democracy to flourish in Athens"Worry not about how you perceive your struggle to convey a point. Bang on. It was the lack of being able to support the population of Attica that drove Athens' foreign policy throughout antiquity. It was this that lead to the disastrous Egyptian expedition in 454 which owed little to a Persian war whose end was found at the mouth of the Eurymedon some ten years hence GÇô other that nice propaganda GÇô and much to Pericles' expansionist, economic policies. Grain sources were to ancient Athens what oil sources are to current [ http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/stev ... 63,00.html ] "non imperial" powers.The famine gene will mutate.
Given it's 04:10, I'll hit the "fart sack" and check back when the outside temperature's some 35 degrees centigrade (about 10:00). Just need a way to connect from the pool....

Paralus

[pahoja]

Much of History is a Historian's view point. ATG's history is what the conservative West believes as history. Few would give any credence to the differences that exist between accounts from Persian, Ethiopian, Arabic and other sources. For example the Persians place ATG in about the first century about 200years before the Sassanians. Most non-western sources name ATG as Roman Caesar's son., and belonging to Ammuria and not Macedonia.

[pahoja]

Much of History is a Historian's view point. ATG's history is what the conservative West believes as history. Few would give any credence to the differences that exist between accounts from Persian, Ethiopian, Arabic and other sources. For example the Persians place ATG in about the first century about 200years before the Sassanians. Most non-western sources name ATG as Roman Caesar's son., and belonging to Ammuria and not Macedonia.

[ruthaki]

I suspect that, as in the present, there was a load of propoganda in the past as well. How many 'eye-witness' accounts are there, and how many of those are NOT slanted to the teller's advantage? Nobody can say for sure about these things unless you were actually there and participating and even then there'd be a slanted view-point according to whose side you were on. Just doing research for my novel I've read so many varying points of view about Alexander's world in the end you just have to figure out what 'logically' happened.