pothos.org

Stavros You bang on about Greek History and culture and the riches.Do you refer to the integral in fightinmg andf intercity intollerance to its neighbours.The attitide that Greek be supreme and everything else been Barbarian . Alexander Philip and Macedonia included.To say we all want a piece of Greece is the kind of high minded attitude of Demosthenese.Greek culture would have spread absolutely nowhere at all,,, were it not for the young Macedonian Alexander.Whatever you say there Is doubt wether Alexander was actually Greek,,,, First and for most he was MacedonianI am entitled to my opinion on ancient Greece,,, that they were corrupt back stabbers who were always underlining Alexander.To conclude If we do call Macedonia Greek then lets accept they were far superior ahd more outlooking and above all more tollerant and inclusive than the rest.If they were Greek then they were the best Greeks.
Kenny

Alexander. Who I consider not to be Greek but a Macedonian,,, And my understanding of Ancient Greece is very good thankyou. Alexander was a Macedonian and a Greek. Leonides was a Spartan and a Greek Peracles was an Athenian and a Greek. Ancient Greece was never a nation state but a patch work of City States and Kingdoms. Kenny your knowlege of ancient Greece is limited.Greek speaking peoples 1st emeged in the northern part of Greece near Olympus.The earliest remains deciephered as Greek in Mycenae conclude that Greek speaking peoples entered the Southern parts of the pennisla from the North. As Hammond states-"Hellenic Origins-The distribution of the Greek diolects in the classical world has something to tell us about the Mycenean worldThe first Greek speaking people settled in Thessaly,Epirus and Macedonia around 2500 BC He states they spoke Ionic The later Greek speaking people developed the Achean group of diolects -Aeolian and arcadian driving the earlier Ionic people to Athens ." The Macedonians were the Greek tribes that remained in the original homeland around Olympus.Greeks who moved south imposed their language and institutions on earlier pre Greek mediteranean peoples enslaving them killing some and absorbing remenats into the lower classes. The Southern Greeks having absorbed more urbane manners from their conquered subjects developed differently from their northern kin.The Macedonians retained older more Homeric institutions once common in all Greek tribes that became out dated in the south=--See Wilken " And yet when we take into account the political conditions, religion and morals of the Macedonians, our conviction is strengthened that they were Greek race and akin to the Dorians""Having stayed in the extreme north they were unable to particpated in the proggressive civilization of the tribes went futher south" Even Eugene Borza who is the biggest opponent of the more Greek origin position held by the vast majority of historians accepts Hammonds conclusion that the origin of the Macedonians lies in the proto Hellenic tribes who moved out of the the Pindus Mountains in the Iron age.

As usual in these situations, both sides are
wrong, equally "for laughing" as we say in
Greeklish. The bit about "secret" books is
laughable, and not worth another minute of our
time. The Albanian case is strong enough
without such crass stupidities. As for the Greek
case, that Olympias is Greek name is without
doubt, or that Epirus was under Greek influence
is without doubt either. But this only gets you
part of the way there. Caria was certainly under
Greek influence, with Greek the dominant
tongue at least in the cities, and with dynastic
names like "Artemisia." But Caria was certainly
not Greek. It was Carian. (The Hecatomnid
dynasty hedged their bets by giving some
children Persian names. The exception proves
the rule. The name represents who you WANT
to be, not who you are.).Despite Olypmias' name, the "Greekness" of the
Epirus is certainly blurry, even more so the
Greekness of the Molossi, the ruling tribe and
dynasty. The Molossi were, I remind you, from
the northeast interior extremity of Epirus, not the
presumably more Greek coast. This puts them
as the absolute end of *anywhere* that could be
considered Greek. In any case, their Greekness
was not established in antiquity. See Plutarch
on Alexander of Epirus:.
See Plutarch on Alexander of Epirus:
."Of the Thesprotians and Molossians after the
great inundation, the first king, according to
some historians, was Phaethon, one of those
who came into Epirus with Pelasgus. Others tell
us that Deucalion and Pyrrha, having set up the
worship of Jupiter at Dodona, settled there
among the Molossians. In after time,
Neoptolemus, Achilles's son, planting a colony,
possessed these parts himself, and left a
succession of kings, who, after him, was
named Pyrrhidae, as he in his youth was called
Pyrrhus, and of his legitimate children, one was
born of Lanassa, daughter of Cleodaeus,
Hyllus's son, had also that name. From him
Achilles came to have divine honours in Epirus,
under the name of Aspetus, in the language of
the country. After these first kings, those of the
following intervening times becoming
barbarous, and insignificant both in their power
and their lives, Tharrhypas is said to have been
the first who, by introducing Greek manners and
learning, and humane laws into his cities, left
any fame of himself."
.
Here we have a nice confused tradition, with
both Greek and non

Here we have a nice confused tradition, with
both Greek and non-Greek elements. Mythical
characters both Greek (Phaethon) and
non-Greek (Pelasgus). Early Greek kings
settling among "the Molossians." Mention of
Achilles being called "Aspetus," "in the
language of that country." Progressive
barbarization and the "re"-introduction of Greek
manners, etc. What do we have? The remnants
of ancient polemic, the detritus of claims and
couter-claims, seeking to verify or dispute the
"Greekness" of a region and dynasty seeking
and eventually suceeding to become part of the
Greek mainstream..
Incidentally, what does Spiros think Albanians
are from? They're clearly not Slavs. Indeed, their
location shows the classic pattern of a group
that was widespread (ie., Illyrians) being
pushed aside by another group (Slavs), leaving
it in only the most inaccessible and unattractive
place, the Albanian mountains. And Albanian's
linguistic position, alone, without much kinship
with Greek or Slavic? Precicely where do you
think they came from?
.
Anyway, it's clear that Greek has undergone
less change than most languages. Greek was
fixed in writing at a very early period, and this
tends to retard language change. Albanian was
first written during the Renaissance. As far as
modern Greek's understanding ancient Greek,
that's complete foolishness. It isn't true even if
you pronounce the ancient in a modern way, but
it's doubly untrue if you used an ancient
pronunciation--the "language" is not the
orthography.
.
And, lest you forget, modern Greek is not a
completely organic development, but a
renovation of the ancient language, a linguistic
"ethic" cleansing of "non-Greek" elements. If
England were to spend a century purging the
language of French elements, I'll bet we'd all
understand Old English better. So what?

kennysorry, your not reading my posts. accept what you like but your opinon is wrong. your knowledge of Greece pre Alex is nil personally. you quote 'First and foremost he was Macedonian'. Alexander the Macedonian, Leonidas the Spartan, Pericles the Athenian etcc.. all greek. there were greeks who inhabited the land in macedonia way before Alexander the Great. Greeks that competed in the Olypic Games etc.... language, culture etc... Three ancient Theaters were discovered in Macedonia; one is at Dion, dating back to the 5th century BCE; the second is at Vergina (Aegai) GÇô 4th century BCE and the third at Philippi. Ancient plays used to be performed in these Theaters. At the Dion Theater, EuripidesGÇÖ Bachae and Arhelaos were introduced for the first time. Some experts believe that Iphigeneia in Aulis was presented there. The theme of the play Arhelaos is associated with the migration of the Argive Timenidis, Prince of Macedonia and founder of the Royal House of Aegai. These tragedies, played in these Theaters, were written in the Greek language, since they were intended for Greek audience, the Macedonians.there were also greeks who travelled all around the medditeranean way before alexander, to the east, west, north and south. Cities like Cyrene, Syracuse, Barcelona to mention a few.You mention Demosthenes. one greek calls them barbarian and all of a sudden they are a different nationality. i dont think so.The Athenian politician-orator Demosthenes, King PhilipGÇÖs main opponent, speaking to the Athenians, said: GÇ£GǪarenGÇÖt all our powerful locations placed in the hands of this man? Will we not suffer the most awful humiliation? Are we not already at war with him? IsnGÇÖt he our enemy? IsnGÇÖt he in possession of our lands? IsnGÇÖt he a barbarian? DoesnGÇÖt he deserve all this name-calling?GÇ¥ Demosthenes, in his speech, spoke with human anger against an opponent. When he called King Philip GÇ£barbarianGÇ¥, he did not mean that Philip was GÇ£not GreekGÇ¥. This was taken for granted, since in his Olympic II oration, Demosthenes praises the State of Macedonia. At the same time Demosthenes could not call anyone a GÇ£barbarianGÇ¥, given that his own origin was GÇ£barbarianGÇ¥. Aeschinus, in his oration against Ktisiphon, calls Demosthenes GÇ£libelousGÇ¥, because he is GÇ£barbarianGÇ¥ by his Scythe mother and only a GÇ£GreekGÇ¥ by language.Your wrote, 'If they were Greeks they were the best of Greeks'. yeah right? So good that when Alex kicked the bucket they were

Your wrote, 'If they were Greeks they were the best of Greeks'. yeah right? So good that when Alex kicked the bucket they were at each others throats as to who is the mightiest to take over the empire. Just like Greeks on the mainland.personally that should be refrased to Alexander being the best ruler, general, conquerer.cheers Stavros

Mou aresei pos stin olumpia grapheis no need for explanation. Is it maybe because you can not explain it? ha?Spyros o Megas