pothos.org

Like I said I will move on to ARRIAN and other sources.It is critical that we 1st establish how the Macedonians were mentioned prior to the time of ATG.The Peloponnesians that were with the fleet were... the Lacedaemonians ... the Corinthians... the Sicyonians... the Epidaurians... the Troezenians... the people of Hermione there; all these, except the people of Hermione, were of DORIAN and MACEDONIAN stock and had last come from Erineus and Pindus and the Dryopian region". Herodotus VIII, 43 ONCE again ,HERODOTUS mentions MACEDONIAN and DORIAN STOCK via ORIGINS in the PINDUS and DRYOPIAN REGIONS. HERODOTUS never ONCE mentions MACEDONIANS AS being HELLENIZED like he does the ATHENIANS nor does he ever INDICATE they had MULIPLE ORIGINS like he does the CYPRIOTS ( including GREEK of Course).HE CLEARLY associates MACEDONIANS with EARLY HELLENIC TRIBES of the PINDUS REGIONS. It is quite CLEAR IN HERODOTUS'S WRITINGS that he CONSIDERS the MACEDONIANS to be among the EARLY GREEK PEOPLES and CONFIRMS their GREEK ORIGINS severral times. IF the MACEDONIANS were GREEK in ORIGIN as mentioned by HERODOTUS (he clearly states they were) before ATG it would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to be NON GREEK at the TIME of PHILLIP DECADES LATER. Herodotus was a historian.The Macedonians=barbarians was promoted by Athenian POLITICIANS and those in power among City states who feared losing power to Phillip. Mudslinging among political figures was common then as it is today. Regards, Dimitrios

Demetrius, your writing about HDT 1.56.1,2 and 3, are little bit TWISTED. You wrote this:When Decaulion was their KING they were living in Pthia ,but in the time of DORUS Son of HELLEN they were in the territory around MT OSSA and OLYMPUS (Macedonia),known as HISTAEOTIS.Having been evicted from HISTAEOTIS by the Cadmeans and setteled in MT PINDUS where they were called MAKEDONIANS.Next,they moved to Dryopis,and finally reached the Peloponese where theywere called DORIANS.1. HISTAEOTIS was a teritory south of Mt.Ossa and Olympus, i.e. in Thessaly, NOT North of them in teritory of Macedonia.2. They were not called Makedonians, but they settled in the TERITORY CALLED MAKEDONIA, and then moved from there to Peloponesse.This is the exact account on HDT 1.56.1,2 and 3HDT 1.56.1 When he heard these verses, Croesus was pleased with them above all, for he thought that a mule would never be king of the Medes instead of a man, and therefore that he and his posterity would never lose his empire. Then he sought very carefully to discover who the mightiest of the Greeks were, whom he should make his friends. [2] He found by inquiry that the chief peoples were the Lacedaemonians among those of Doric, and the Athenians among those of Ionic stock. These races, Ionian and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first a Pelasgian and the second a Hellenic people. The Pelasgian race has never yet left its home; the Hellenic has wandered often and far. [3] For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, *****it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian*****; from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, where it took the name of Dorian.Greek version:
HDT 1.56.1 Greek - toutoisi elthousi toisi epesi ho Kroisos pollon ti malista pant+¦n h+¬sth+¬, elpiz+¦n h+¬mionon oudama ant' andros basileusein M+¬d+¦n, oud' +¦n autos oude hoi ex autou pausesthai kote t+¬s arch+¬s. meta de tauta ephrontize histore+¦n tous an Hell+¬n+¦n dunat+¦tatous eontas proskt+¬saito philous, [2] histore+¦n de heuriske Lakedaimonious kai Ath+¬naious proechontas tous men tou D+¦rikou geneos tous de tou I+¦nikou. tauta gar +¬n ta prokekrimena, eonta to archaion to men Pelasgikon to de Hell+¬nikon ethnos. kai to men oudam+¬i k+¦ exech+¦r+¬se, to de poluplan+¬ton kart

cont...[2] histore+¦n de heuriske Lakedaimonious kai Ath+¬naious proechontas tous men tou D+¦rikou geneos tous de tou I+¦nikou. tauta gar +¬n ta prokekrimena, eonta to archaion to men Pelasgikon to de Hell+¬nikon ethnos. kai to men oudam+¬i k+¦ exech+¦r+¬se, to de poluplan+¬ton karta. [3] epi men gar Deukali+¦nos basileos oikee g+¬n t+¬n Phthi+¦tin, epi de D+¦rou tou Hell+¬nos t+¬n hupo t+¬n Ossan te kai ton Olumpon ch+¦r+¬n, kaleomen+¬n de Histiai+¦tin: ek de t+¬s Histiai+¦tidos h+¦s exanest+¬ hupo Kadmei+¦n, *****oikee en Pind+¦i Makednon kaleomenon*****: entheuten de autis es t+¬n Druopida meteb+¬ kai ek t+¬s Druopidos hout+¦ es Peloponn+¬son elthon D+¦rikon ekl+¬th+¬.
The similar passages in English and Greek are marked with an asterix ( * ).Best Regards,Lazar

HDT 8.43.1 The following took part in the war: from the Peloponnese, the Lacedaemonians provided sixteen ships; the Corinthians the same number as at Artemisium; the Sicyonians furnished fifteen ships, the Epidaurians ten, the Troezenians five, the Hermioneans three. All of these except the Hermioneans are Dorian and Macedonian and had last come from Erineus and Pindus and the Dryopian region. The Hermioneans are Dryopians, driven out of the country now called Doris by Herakles and the Malians.Here he talks about Sicyonians, Epidaurians and the Troezenians that are Dorians and Macedonians. Which one of these three ( 3 ) tribes are refeered to as Dorians and which one's as Makedonians he does not specifies.Read it as it is not as you preffer to.Regards,Lazar

there were no ancient nations. greeks (ellines) was a generic term used for the macedonians, athenians, spartans, cretans and so on. all at war with each other at some point or another. these distinctions between cities and kingdoms are all greek, there is no slavic peoples involved, no fyromian connection.where is an ancient slavic source??? you have yet to answer this question.

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stavros,why don't you stop posting nonsenses. I told 1 million times I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT TODAYS COUNTRIES AND\OR PEOPLES. The topic is Ancient People, GOT IT???For a change you can start reading my posts WITHOUT thinking that I am from Republic of Macedonia or FYROM or whatever you wanna call it.AAIGHT????

The following took part in the war: from the PELOPONESE , the Lacedaemonians provided sixteen ships; the Corinthians the same number as at Artemisium; the Sicyonians furnished fifteen ships, the Epidaurians ten, the Troezenians five, the Hermioneans three. ALL of these EXCEPT the Hermioneans are DORIAN and MACEDONIAN stock and had last come from Erineus and PINDUS and the DROYPIAN region. The Hermioneans are Dryopians, driven out of the country now called Doris by Herakles and the Malians.(return of heracles associated with dorians) THE PASSAGE IS SELF EXPLAINATORY -THE CONECTUION
BETWEEN THE DORIANS AS A BRANCH OF THE MACEDONIAN ETHOS WAS ESTABLISHED IN BOOK ONE. HERODOTUS CLEARLY STATES THE PELOPONESIANS WERE OF DORIC/ MACEDONIAN STOCK.IF THE MACEDONIANS WERE NOT GREEK BUT PELOPONESIONS MENTIONS EXCEPT FOR ONE TRIBE ARE ALL OF DORIC AND MACEDONIAN STOCK .THEN YOU WOULD HAVE TO SAY THE PELOPONESIANS WERE NOT GREEK SINCE MANY WERE COMPOSED OF MACEDONIAN STOCK FROM PINDUS.SO ARE THE PELOPONISIANS GREEK? YES OR NO? OBVIOUSLY HERODOTUS DOES NOT CHALLENGE THEIR HELLENISM .IF PELOPONISIAN TROOPS WERE INDEED PART MACEDONIAN AND THE DORIANS IN BOOK ONE WERE RELATED TO THE MACEDONIANS WHO IN YOUR MIND WERE NOT GREEK THEN NEITHER WERE THE SPARTANS AND THE OTHER PELOPONSIANS MENTIONED EXCEPT ONE TRIBE.

Lazar I gave you the source I quoted from in the 1st thread .You are MORE then welcome to research it.Demetrius, your writing about HDT 1.56.1,2 and 3, are little bit TWISTED. You wrote this:When Decaulion was their KING they were living in Pthia ,but in the time of DORUS Son of HELLEN they were in the territory around MT OSSA and OLYMPUS (Macedonia),known as HISTAEOTIS.Having been evicted from HISTAEOTIS by the Cadmeans and setteled in MT PINDUS where they were called MAKEDONIANS.Next,they moved to Dryopis,and finally reached the Peloponese where theywere called DORIANS.1. HISTAEOTIS was a teritory south of Mt.Ossa and Olympus, i.e. in Thessaly, NOT North of them in teritory of Macedonia. I pointed out MT OLYMPUS was in MACEDONIA which it is .When they settled in that region they were known as HISTAEOTIS 2. They were not called Makedonians, but they settled in the TERITORY CALLED MAKEDONIA, They were called MACEDONIANS when they settled in MT PINDUS the passage is clear -
and then moved from there to Peloponesse. WHERE they were called DORIANS -TThe ones who remained in MACEDONIA KEPT their tribal name. The PASSAGE states The TRIBE ASSOCIATED with HELEN took on DIFFERENT NAMES in DIFFERENT AREAS OF GREECE THEY SETTLED.The name HELLAS TO describe GREEK people came LATER and GRADUALLY over a LONG period of time.The NAME MACEDONIA is ASSOCIATEDwith ORIGINAL GREEK SPEAKING PEOPLES who
settleted in that region. Lazar, Also see my other response Herodotus even during the time of the Persian Wars mentions Macedonian stock in the Peloponese .Why ? Reagards , Dimitrios

Demetrius let me tell you where exactly you are making the twists.When Decaulion was their KING they were living in Pthia ,but in the time of DORUS Son of HELLEN they were in the territory around MT OSSA and OLYMPUS (Macedonia),known as HISTAEOTIS.Having been evicted from HISTAEOTIS by the Cadmeans and setteled in MT PINDUS where they were called MAKEDONIANS.Next,they moved to Dryopis,and finally reached the Peloponese where theywere called DORIANS.For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, *****it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian*****; from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, where it took the name of Dorian.First pasage is pasage you wrote it and second one is the pasage as it is Originally.
See the difference?First twist:
...but in the time of DORUS Son of HELLEN they were in the territory around MT OSSA and OLYMPUS (Macedonia),known as HISTAEOTIS...The original passage DOES NOT Mentions...(Macedonia)... after Mt.Ossa and Olympus..,instead it says: ...then the country called Histiaean,under Ossa and Olympus....Second twist:...in MT PINDUS where they were called MAKEDONIANS... where you twisted the Passage saying that THEY WERE CALLED MACEDONIANS.The original passage DOES NOT states that, but:...it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian...HE MENTIONS MACEDONIA AS A "TERITORY WHERE THEY SETTLED" AND SHORTLY AFTERWARDS LEFT THE SAME TERITORY. HDT NEVER MENTIONS HERE THAT THEY "WERE CALLED MACEDONIANS".That's the point, Demetrius,Regards,Lazar

When Decaulion was their KING they were living in Pthia ,but in the time of DORUS Son of HELLEN they were in the territory around MT OSSA and OLYMPUS (Macedonia),known as HISTAEOTIS.Having been evicted from HISTAEOTIS by the Cadmeans and setteled in MT PINDUS where they were called MAKEDONIANS.Next,they moved to Dryopis,and finally reached the Peloponese where theywere called DORIANS. Lazar, I pointed out MT OYMPUS WAS IN MACEDEDONIA - FACTthey were in the territory around MT OSSA and OLYMPUS (Macedonia),known as HISTAEOTIS. I NEVER SAID they were known as MACEDONIANS when they settled between OSSA and OLYMPUS but were known as HISTAEOTIS-( MT Olympus is in Macedonia) does NOT imply they settled there Having been evicted from HISTAEOTIS by the Cadmeans and setteled in MT PINDUS where they were called MAKEDONIANS. This QUOTE comes directly from HERODOTUS -OXFORD WORLD CLASSICS -A Translation by Robin Waterfield
Oxford University Press

Paragraph (56) Book 1 You can check out the source and write to Mr Waterfield and take it up with him if you are not happy witth the translation. This is the last time I will address this point. Even if you take the translation they settled in MACEDONIA it states that the tribe known as HELEN did go there and settle -The name MACEDONIA is Greek
thus they settled in a territory with a GREEK name-So then who named it MACEDONIA Also see the following site, which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, they SETTLED, under the NAME of MACENDI, in the chain of Pindus. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopis having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as Dorians.
http://www.people.carleton.edu/~jperado ... htm#Herod1 Not a GREEK !!! The connection between the MAKEDONI and the DORIANS is clerly cited in Herodotus Sincerely, Dimitrios

Demetrius,The link you provided is not working at all. Check the Perseus digital Library, and read the Original Document In Greek, then translate it yourself , and you see the difference.Regards lazar

Lazar,
http://www.people.carleton.edu/~jperado ... htm#Herod1 I tried the link and it worked when copied and pasted. Of course all books written in English are based on the Authors translation of the original Greek. There is of course variations in the translation EX king Alexander says in the Oxford version My family backround makes me a Greek myself in other version the translation is I am a Hellene of ancient stock Though both are slightly different both imply that he is claiming Hellenic ancestry his geneology. Regards, Dimitrios

lazarnonesense is reading some of your posts on ancient greek historians etc... modern authors, that somehow distinguish two nations in the ancient days. not. you should take a trip to greece, pela, you will however be shocked by what you see. its all greek to me.kind regards stavros

Hi Stavros,I'm generally keeping out of these threads, but I happened to look at these past few posts and I think you're being a bit harsh on Lazar. As far as I can see he is making a clear distinction between modern and ancient, and certainly with reference to Pausanias he is quoting the ancient source only.It's a contentious subject, I know, but do give credit where credit is due - Lazar is being more rational than many!All the bestMarcus