points of view

[gb]

Before 1870 there was no Germany, but still the people thought of themselves as Germans, before 1860 there was no Italy, but there were Italians. And there was no politically independent unit called Greece until 1830.I don't much care for this Greek-Macedonian "discussion", it seems to be completely besides the point. What matters is how Alexander and his people perceived themselves and how others saw them.The main argument against Macedonians being Greek seems to be derogatory remarks by "proper Greeks", city-state dwellers at a time when they were in conflict with each other. Well, I'm from the urbanised part of The Netherlands and I sometimes make remarks about people not even a 100 miles away. You see, they live in much smaller towns and they speak funny.Now if I had an argument with one of them I was trying to get my fellow urban dwellers on my side I-¦d be s+¦re to point out how different they were from us civilised people, how backward...On the other hand I meet people from these 'outer provinces' every day and I never consider them anything but Dutch. These easterners and southeners get to play for the Dutch national football team, much like Macedonians competed in the Olympic Games, because everyone involved thinks they-¦re entitled to it.I-¦m not under the illusion that this will solve anything, there doesn-¦t seem to be a great track-record for trying to understand each other-¦s point of view, but I h+íd to get it off my chest.Now all that rests me is to wish everyone a healthy, peacefull and well-balanced 2004.

[yiannis]

As you say Marjolein, the modern concept of National State, wasn-¦t developed until the 18th-19th century and mainly after the Napoleonic wars.

[beausefaless]

It doesn't matter in the world everywhere people live there could be X files type aliens appearing out of nowhere and someone would say, "look at them damm little gray people moving in, there goes the neighborhood"! It's been this way since the cave dwellers and until someone conquers most of the known world with the same idea's as Alexander, well- don't hold your breath- the chances of that happening are very slim to none. There's some form of bigotry in most humans and the ancient Athenians wrote the book on this subject.

[ruthaki]

Thanks Marjolein. Well said.

[Dimitrios Poliorketes]

The main argument against Macedonians being Greek seems to be derogatory remarks by "proper Greeks", city-state dwellers at a time when they were in conflict with each other.

Good Point!!

Yes in particular the Athenians led by Demostanes who were afraid of the pro phillip faction in Athens. In using a comparison with American Politics in the 19th century here is what John Quincy Adams said about Andrew Jackson
-. He called Jackson "a barbarian and [a] savage who can scarcely spell his own name."http://www.pbs.org/wnet/historyofus/web03/segment6.html
Carolina and then western Tennessee who became a lawyer, a judge, a Of course Andrew Jackson was a Great American President the way Phillip was a great leader of the Greek world.Neither were barbarians yet then as today politicians use regional differences and streotypes to attack their opponents.

[Dimitrios Poliorketes]

Ruth sorry for my not answering your question earlier.The Macedonians in general prefered direct military training for actual combat as opposed to using athletics for developing combat skills though some did compete in the Olympic games.This view however was not that uncommon in the Greek world.The Spartans stopped competing in the Olympics because they felt such contests were useless in developing actual skills needed to be victorios in battle. Alexander was trained in the Macedonian way of war as opposed to the classical ways of the athlete.

[THE LIGHT 7000]

Hi,GǪ. Yes, before colonisation of Nth. America/USA, there were no white colonisators, only native people, later named as Indians. At present Americans are celebrating Independence day, but Indians, native people of Nth. America, more than 500 native tribes, they are strongly opposing this, saying that it was day- symbol when they lost independence, and guess what, they are saying contrary of official USA policy, that George Washington was their biggest butcher. No comment from officials, but growing support from public, because is true. Indians lost most of their native culture, names, languages etc. and now they are calling them Americans. It is interesting how, many like Geronimo, than the biggest enemy of USA, today are national symbols of USA. With the pressure from non-government org., and famous faces mainly from movie industry, now scientific community is investigating lost and destroyed, by their ancestors, tressure of native Americans- known as Indians. Tribal names like Navaho, Cherokee etc., are coming up and guess what- discovered are urban settlements around USA dating back centuries before GÇ£whiteGÇ¥ man step there. (It is obvious that colonisation of Nth. America was, according to latest info., maybe 30 000 years ago, coming from Euro-Asia, GǪ). More interesting is the fact that there were 6 and more stories buildings found there, so the picture of ancient North American world is completely different now, i.e. those proclaimed wild barbarians seems to be more advanced than those who use to colonised themGǪSimular is with Makedonia, especially after 1913GǪGǪSaying that nation states are dating back from 19 century is not true. WHY! If one is considering nation state as state- kingdom as most of today European countries are, or republicGÇÖs etc., we can conclude that Makedonia was state- kingdom, i.e. nation state from the time of Karan, and yes, later Fillip and Alexander. This is not the case with tribal city-states from Pelopones i.e. Sth. from Mt. Olymp. If Makedonia was kingdom- nation state than, with same cultural identity and name until today, and there was no nation state with name Greece until 1830, so how is possible one to talk about Greece from Europe to Asia and not Makedonia! It is same like one is talking about Ivan Terrible, or Ekatherina/ Katherina were SovietGÇÖs i.e. communists! It is time for change GÇô objectiveness, & this is nothing to do with denying identity of othersGǪ!The Light 7000

[stavros]

hello Marjoleinvery well said. its common sense isnt it? ancient greeks have no link with modern day fyromia.kind regardsstavros

[ruthaki]

Thanks, Demitiros. This site is invaluable for getting information for research etc and I truly appreciate everything. Thanks.