Beauty and The Beast

[dean]

Beauty and The Beast.
Here are the three things that in my opinion were Alexander's noblest acts and after, three that for me were the worst. I think that they show the essential dichotomy of the man.1 His victory at Issus- although any of his major battles could be here.2 His treatment of DariusGÇÖ family- and Persian women while held captive.3 Speech at Opis.And the worst...1 Burning of Persepolis2 Razing of Thebes3 Murder of KleitosWhat do you feel are the greatest and the worst things he did?
Best regards,
Dean.

[nick]

The best:1. Changing the ancient economy. Building Alexandria (Egypt) and the other Alexandria's. Minting the gold reserves of the Persians.2. Accepting the role as the last of the great Achaemenids. Taking care of Darius body, excecuting the assassins, marrying into Persian nobility. Making Ancient Persia shine brighly one last time.3. The beautiful strategic move of turning south after Issus (not head for Babylon), paving the way for his overall and decisive achievement that he truly conquered Asia.The worst:1. Dying young, leaving no heir. Drinking habits perhaps.2. Hydaspes battle - destroying his army's determination to conquer more of India; blunting the edge of the army and sowing doubt about their invincibility. He should have chosen a different strategy (I'm not talking about battle tactics).3. Burning Persepolis, yes. Of all his deeds this is the only one without proper explanation or any ground of justification.Regards -
Nick

[jan]

Hi Dean,I like this question or attempt to think. The three best things that Alexander accomplished are first, The taming of Buchephalus, second, the Crossing of the Danube, and third, the claiming the throne of Persepolis.The three worst things that Alexander did were first, never to return to Pella after he left, second, the excessive routing of Thebes, and third, the trip through the desert with all his army and family.The taming of Bucephalus assured his father of his ability and right to the throne, the crossing of the Danube set the stage for the rest of his successes with his army, and the claiming of his rights as the King of Asia crowned his achievement and mission in his life.His breaking his promise to his mother cost him his family, his wife and his children, the razing of Thebes appears to have angered Dionysus (at least in his mind he believed that), and finally, nobody can deny that the last total loss was the most devastating.

[dean]

Hello,Much food for thought is contained in both your replies- Nick and Janet.As you say Nick- drinking habits were certainly one of the worst- I would even dare to say that it took off literally decades of his natural life span and so many of the major events in his life towards the last few years could be attributed alcholism.In the best- I must admit- unconsciously I suppose I chose Issus out of the major battle for the reason you mention.And Janet I find it curious that you mention that never going home was one of the worst things he did.
I have to admit that this aspect has intrigued me for some time and I guess it goes back to the Iliad and Achilles. Also as we have mentioned, going back home would mean a certain return to reality.Achilles knew that he'd never go home. The brighter light dies out much quicker than the dimmer. He wanted glory. I claim no originality for the thought- Max O'Brien expressed it before me
And yet I would like to make a slight correction to O'Brien in his book Invisible Enemy because he states that Alexander sealed his fate after Hephaestion's death because he tried to drown his sorrow in an attack on the Cossaeans- just as Achilles did on the Trojan children sacrificed.Yet in reality- in the Iliad, Homer tells us that it was because Achilles killed Hector that he was doomed.One question- why did Alexander, in his mind, think he would bring Dionysus' revenge on him because of his treatment of Thebes? I don't remember.
Best regards,
Dean.

[jan]

Dear Dean,I believe that Thebes had Dionysus as its god, and that is why Alexander was concerned that he may have gone overboard and offended him. In fact, Dionysus plays an important role amongst the many gods that Alexander had to pacify and to keep on his side. Also, I must tell you that due to difficulty in reaching this site and liking your question so well, I posted it on the Alexander-Macedon site.A poll was just taken there, but I thought this was such a great question, I have just posted it there too, and given you credit for it.Trying to find as many great minds to consider this question...Alexander-Macedon is a part of the history groups in the YahooGroups department. It is a great place to visit Alexander also.Always,Jan

[dean]

Hello Jan, Great to hear from you and thankyou for answering the question. I think it was Dionysus to whom Alexander strangely only sacrificed once if I recall correctly.Dionysus certainly was an excellent figure that Alexander was well aware of and who played a specific role in Alexander's "pothos" and yearning.I am talking about rivalry- I think it was an essential part of the character of Alexander and, as mentioned elsewhere, in the absence of a suitable rival by default he would try to outdo himself- The rivalry "pathos" in his personality is seen with Dionysus and India. He was striving a great part of his waking life to outdo others- if not the likes of Memnon or Darius, then it was Cyrus, or Semi Ramses and if not them then it was Dionysus or Heracles.This part of his psyche, in my opinion, really was what brought out the beauty and sometimes the beast in him or to talk in terms of the gods- the Apollonian and Dionysian.Dean.

[Polyxena]

Hi Dean,
I'm a new member of this forum and I think it's interesting.
As far as I know, Thebes was the birthplace of Dionysus in which he established his cult. Alexander's destruction of Thebes dishonored god's name and caused his anger. It was obvious that Alexander had forgotten the sacrilegious nature of his action... but, at least his mother have reminded him before he left. Also, many times he had forgotten to give sacrifice to Dionysus (concerning the Macedonian calendar) and instead, he made honor to other gods or heroes. And what Alexander believed? Plutarch writes that he certainly believed that the murder of Cleitus (committed when he was drunk), the cowardly refusal of the Macedonians to cross Ganges and attack Indians (that cut his campaign) were both caused by god's anger. In his anger, Dionysus sweared that he will use the wine in order to remind Alexander of his (Dionysus) name. And concerning his true misson...I agree that Alexander followed Achilles' footsteps: to led out his people to fight, never to return home, never to grow old and all for everlasting fame. "Beauty and the beast"... interesting comparison but I see the reason of his metamorphosis in the combination of an excessive drinking habit, his fear and anger. Yes, he was afraid ... so many accusations were laid before him and he became inclined to believe even in false charges. And more, if anybody spoke ill of him, his judgement would become wrong and his mood cruel and merciless (as we know that he valued his good name more than his life). In addition, he became too fond of wine and that's why he begun to rely on the good gift of Dionysus. This drinking habit began to contribute to a transformation in his personality .... he became a beast ... and ....finally, the god has found his way to avenge the destruction of his favourite city.
Regards,
Poliksena

[John.]

That's what I understand, too; Thebes was the birthplace of Dionysus, son of Zeus and Semele.Alexander REALLY had problems with this god. You mention the death of Cleitus, caused by Alexander when he was drunk. Then Alexander was anguished, thinking people would view him as a beast, and saying to himself, "This is how I have paid back my nurse Lanika, by murdering her brother!"Dionysus, on the other hand, paid back HIS nurse Nyse, by naming a beautiful city after her in west India. In this city Nysa, Alexander's generals put garlands on their heads and ran around, allowing themselves to be possessed by the god Dionysus. And they say Alexander was greatly irratated by it.John

[job]

Dear Poliksena,
Welcome to the forum. I am a fellow traveler who is dropping in momentarily while in the midst of research on an unrelated topic. I must say that I found what you had to say about Alexander and Dionysus intriguing and curiously reminiscent of something I've read somewhere. Speaking of reading, you might want to take a look at Waldemar Heckel's article on 'Polyxena, the Mother of Alexander the Great' in Chiron 1981 11: 79-86.
Best wishes,
John O'Brien
p.s. Hello Dean, Janet, et. al.

[John.]

I thought that name sounded familiar! Polyxena was the name of Alexander's mother Olympias before she became Olympias.This made me think of something, something where Alexander performed better than Dionysus: In taking care of his mother!At least Olympias survived until she was 50 or so.Semele, on the other hand (Dionysus' mother) didn't even live long enough to see Dionysus outside of her womb, since she was fried to death by Zeus' lightning.So Dionysus gave more honor to his nurse, Nysa, than to his mother Semele.John

[dean]

Hello,Yes, welcome to the forum Poliksena and thanks for you reply- it was interesting reading. I didn't realise that it was in Thebes where Dionysus had established his cult- the pieces start fitting.John*I for some reason was under the impression that Myrdale was the original name of Olympias.And Max- as you have said before- Alexander at 23 is so very different from Alexander at 33. It is interesting to try to think what produced such a dramatic difference and I am sure that Dionysus was more than a little involved in the transformation.Best regards,
Dean.

[John.]

Dean,You wrote, "John* I for some reason was under the impression that Myrdale was the original name of Olympias."I think you're trying to say "Myrtale." Anyway, if you're really interested, look back to the post by "Max" above, where he cite's Waldemar Heckel's article, "Polyxena, the Mother of Alexander the Great."John

[jan]

Hello Dean,I appreciate your interest in his dichotomy, the best and the worst of his character. The term rivaly is an interesting way to describe his competitive nature. I believe that you are quite correct in his desire to be the best at everything that he undertook. What has always amazed me the most is that his soldiers fell in line and marched with him to achieve that great goal.Competition does bring out the best in everyone, so I believe it is great the Olympics are going to be held in Athens at the beginning of this millenium.It is a great tribute to Alexander that the committee so honored Athens, and I am hoping that all the security will be tight and that Alexander's memory will be justified to those of us who are his admirers.I responded to the Gordian knot message and will not repeat myself here. But it is good to see that John Maxwell O'Brien is mentioned in the bibliography of a book that I just purchased. HIs book, The Invisible Enemy, appears in the document section of Pierre Briant's book Alexander the Great.I thought that was a nice touch!Respectfully,Jan

[jan]

Hello John,I have been singing your praises again today as I just bought a book by Pierre Briant in which he lists your book in his bibliography. I thought that is such a nice compliment to you.Your reading suggestions are very helpful. Thank you.Always,Jan

[Polyxena]

Dear John,
Thanks for your kind welcome. On the other hand, I wonder if I've seen
your name written on some book recently?
Speaking of Alexander's mother, I know that she was known by other
names except Olympias. One of that names was Polyxena .. but, there are two
different theories about her real name: Plutarch claims that she was
born as Polyxena and later, she was called Myrtale, Olympias and
Stratonice. But, Justin claims that Myrtale was her real name and later she was
called Polyxena.....??? What do you think? And thanks about the
Heckel's article on Polyxena but, I don't know where to find it?
Kind regards,
Poliksena