Maybe the love of ancient history is surfacing again?!

[Phoebus]

Though I can understand the disappointment , I don't see how it eludes anyone as to why history is often both unpopular and poorly learned in the US.

The curriculum given by most US schools is taught by educators who earn a laughable amount of money for their troubles. The states that rank the lowest in terms of grades and such are also the ones that pay out the least amount to educators. There is a very thick line between idealism and fiscal self-sabotage; people starting off teaching in places like South Carolina's rural counties, for example, are practically asking to be paid below the US national average income: $27,883 for a beginning teacher vs. $43,500 for the national average income!

So, to begin with, in a nation that thrives on the "free market" mentality, you're starting off on the wrong foot when you tell the guy or girl reponsible for broadening your child's horizons that they won't be earning as much as the person next door.

Beyond that, though, I was always under the impression that many--if not most--teachers in the primary (elementary-high school) system were generalists first and foremost, having attained a bachelor's degree in education but not necessarily advanced degrees in the subject they would eventually teach in.

We can lament the lack of historical learning in the US... But I would point out that history is hardly alone in lagging behind; would anyone claim that graduating American high school students broadly show great interest or knowledge regarding literature?

[Theseus]

D's? That is quite disappointing. I'm very glad your daughter scored so highly. Both of you should be very proud. However, the fact that the majority of the class didn't even pass is quite disturbing. I am hoping that it was because they didn't have time to study or they were just having a bad day, but it seems unlikely. I just don't want it to be because they don't care for ancient history - . I know, it sounds like impossibility when we're surrounded by such great minds in this forum, but unfortunately, not everyone in the world cares for history as much as we do.

I hate to say it and it's painful, but my daughter informed me that pretty much the whole class said learning about Greece was "boring" . I know that all of us here find ancient history exciting and it really bothers me that more people don't view it the same way as us. How can any part of ancient Greek history be boring??? The Greek states fighting amongst themselves, the battles with Persia, beautiful buildings that are still standing today, the greatest conqueror of all time?!
Do you think all of the technology we have today is causing this lack of interest in ancient history? That people think if it's not happening today what does it matter? If so it's truly a narrow way of looking at things. I know there are a good amount of people with an interest in history or movies like 300 and of course Alexander wouldn't have done well in release or on dvd.

[Vergina Sun]

I hate to say it and it's painful, but my daughter informed me that pretty much the whole class said learning about Greece was "boring" . I know that all of us here find ancient history exciting and it really bothers me that more people don't view it the same way as us. How can any part of ancient Greek history be boring??? The Greek states fighting amongst themselves, the battles with Persia, beautiful buildings that are still standing today, the greatest conqueror of all time?!
Do you think all of the technology we have today is causing this lack of interest in ancient history? That people think if it's not happening today what does it matter? If so
it's truly a narrow way of looking at things. I know there are a good amount of people with an interest in history or movies like 300 and of course Alexander wouldn't have done well in release or on dvd.

Boring? If Alexander the Great is boring, then I must be on the wrong planet. Anyway, boring?! Wow, that is very shocking to hear. How can people find Britney Spears and her little "soap opera" interesting, and Ancient Greece boring?

Now that I have recovered from my initial shock, let me see what we have. Clearly, to me at least, the material of Ancient Greece is certainly not boring. I had a grand time learning about it. If the material is not boring, then it either doesn't go with the child's taste, or is just presented in the wrong way. Please don't look at this as criticism to your child's history teacher. She must be much more educated on the subject than I will ever be. Yet I still wonder how someone could possibly make history boring. Maybe it's her style of teaching?

I remember my history teacher gave us a lot of time to explore. If you force something on kids, they probably will take it grudgingly, and assume that it's boring. I know I found Alexander the Great (from this site, actually) when we were doing our own research. Of course we had structured classes everyday, but it wasn't the type where we sat around and read history books. We went out and tried to find information ourselves because we wanted to.

Maybe that's what is lacking in this generation's education in general. Before, education was a privilege, something people wanted very badly. Look how many fought for equal rights for women and colored people. They wanted to learn. Now, we have a nation that is forcing education on everyone. Everyone must learn the same information, not because they want to, but because they have to. If we could show children the value of learning beyond just passing a test, maybe they wouldn't find all this "boring".

Technology might have a part to play in this. Maybe children are starting to think that there will always be someone smart to do their work for them on the internet or somewhere. With education being so easy to access, are people starting to take it for granted? It's no longer the stuff of royalty or the wealthy. Now it's there for everyone. But keeping a secret that everyone knows is no fun at all. Is this what's causing people to lose interest in education?

[Theseus]

Vergina,
We are again in agreement!
It really seems a lot of children these days are very interested in things that just really don't matter, Britany Spears her sister, Paris Hilton, what do these people do for our society? Will they be remembered in 2000 years, of course not. I know we find it hard to believe some people find ancient history boring while we find is so exciting. I know her teacher loves ancient history because we have discussed our mutual interest in the subject so I don't think it's in her teaching, but the students of today that would rather be using their mp3's or ipods than learning something ancient. There will always be exceptions to this though and hopefully through those exceptions the love of ancient history must carry on.
With films like 300 and Alexander doing well it shows there is interest in ancient history. I wonder what historic film will come next. I'd love to see a film on Theseus. It would have to be part fact,part fiction since there are so many mythical connections to his life.

[jasonxx]

An Interest in Ancient Greek. Could I please try and find an answers my friends. I would base a lack of onterest on the society as a whole and to be fair its a condemnation of society and Christmas celebrations are a prime example.

People as a whole in our societies are not interesred in learning any thing. All the want is quick fixes. Video games.The latest mobile phones. Manufactured crap piop music. Junk food. Credit cards the latest gadgetsetc etc.

For me the world as a whole is losing sense of purpose and soul. When hundreds of thousands buy into things like the Spice Girls reunion I wonder just how stupid people have become. All they have done is reform because the careaers have gone pear shaped.

People kids as a whole are not interested any more in anything that doesnt concern them. and im afaraid Ancient History is included. How can a society care about Ancient history when London Spends £1000.000p on a fire work display whilst Kenyans are butchering each other in a Church.

Maybe im been pesimistic and the echo about Alexander been a Killer and war monger maybe he was but the scales of killing and atrocities stay the same in one form or others. Man kind aint content unless its destroying or killing or even watching killing in movies.

Back to the point why people are not interestted in History. Its because they are mostly lazy and couldnt care less if it dont effect there latest ytoys fixes etc.

For me im delighted my 8 year old son shows interest and has mentioned they will be doing the Romans at the next school. I would hope so and really get involved with his studies.

He asked me yesterday if I had read all the books on the shelves and I said yes. He then asked how my interest started. I told him my ancient Greek Studies started with the Richard Egan Movie 300 Spartans.

For me with learning all starts with a spark and I hope my children have the pacients and interest to learn rather than junk up on XBOX

kenny

[Theseus]

An Interest in Ancient Greek. Could I please try and find an answers my friends. I would base a lack of onterest on the society as a whole and to be fair its a condemnation of society and Christmas celebrations are a prime example.

People as a whole in our societies are not interesred in learning any thing. All the want is quick fixes. Video games.The latest mobile phones. Manufactured crap piop music. Junk food. Credit cards the latest gadgetsetc etc.

For me the world as a whole is losing sense of purpose and soul. When hundreds of thousands buy into things like the Spice Girls reunion I wonder just how stupid people have become. All they have done is reform because the careaers have gone pear shaped.

People kids as a whole are not interested any more in anything that doesnt concern them. and im afaraid Ancient History is included. How can a society care about Ancient history when London Spends £1000.000p on a fire work display whilst Kenyans are butchering each other in a Church.

Maybe im been pesimistic and the echo about Alexander been a Killer and war monger maybe he was but the scales of killing and atrocities stay the same in one form or others. Man kind aint content unless its destroying or killing or even watching killing in movies.

Back to the point why people are not interestted in History. Its because they are mostly lazy and couldnt care less if it dont effect there latest ytoys fixes etc.

For me im delighted my 8 year old son shows interest and has mentioned they will be doing the Romans at the next school. I would hope so and really get involved with his studies.

He asked me yesterday if I had read all the books on the shelves and I said yes. He then asked how my interest started. I told him my ancient Greek Studies started with the Richard Egan Movie 300 Spartans.

For me with learning all starts with a spark and I hope my children have the pacients and interest to learn rather than junk up on XBOX

kenny

Kenny, You made some great points here. I agree that the technology of today is a factor. It seems there are more over weight children today than ever before in history. Why move when you have gadgets that make things easy and fun? The easy way out isn't always the best way is it?! Things have changed so much because of technology, but are we losing ourselves to it? I think we are for the most part. There will be some that wont follow that path, but I fear it will lessen as more time goes by.
We have to hang on to the hope that at least we are able to pass our love of ancient history on to our children and then maybe they will do the same.
I was happy to see when I was at the King Tut exhibit in Philadelphia that there were children other than mine there and they seemed very interested.
It's great that your child shares your interest.

[Vergina Sun]

It's amazing how little people think nowadays. You would imagine that as time goes on, our civilizations would hopefully become more intelligent. While it is true that we have made many advancements in technology, they seem to be a double-edged sword. While it would be hypocritical for me to say many types of technology are taking away from education, as I am probably guilty of using some of them, I still can't see why we can't keep a balance of everything.

What happened to the age where making discoveries was the greatest honor? Isn't it strange how the Emmy's seen to overshadow the Nobel Prize? I would much rather have a Nobel Prize, as I'm sure many of you would too. Don't get me wrong, acting is very important. It played a major role in Ancient Greece. However, nowadays, as Kenny said, all people want is bloodshed or something else that isn't important. I always love seeing how well movies like 300 or Troy do, but get the feeling that people are missing the main point. I also think that many people go just to see wars and sex. Maybe a few get something greater out of it, but what about the rest?

Adults and celebrities have a great influence on children, but many abuse it too much. Take Soulja Boy and his disgusting song about "cranking" women (if you haven't heard it, you're extremely lucky). Children in my school sing it all the time. It has trickled down to our younger grades, and they sing it without even realizing what the lyrics mean! Can we imagine a world where we are run not by politicians, but singers who enjoy degrading women? I don't mind people becoming famous, I just want the right people.

We here in America see ourselves as very civilized, but how civilized can we be with our iPods and whatnot? It's great to see other children take an interest in ancient history. There's supposed to be this amazing exhibition called "Gods in Color" at a museum that's about a ten minute walk from my house. It's reconstruction of Greek Gods in what their original colors might have been (if anyone's at all interested, the website is here: http://www.artmuseums.harvard.edu/exhib ... Color.html). I've been dying to see it, but have had trouble finding the time. So many exhibits, so little time!

Anyway, that was off on its own tangent, but I still hope that as long as resources are available in museums and such, it might get to someone. Movies might be a great help too. They just might spark the imagination of a child. A movie on Theseus would be very fascinating. I'm surprised there isn't anything on that yet. Let's hope that they don't kill the myth when trying to make the movie. (Anyone who has seen Disney's Hercules would know Hollywood has a way of destroying myths. It was an amusing film, but amazingly inaccurate. Loved the songs, though. )

[jasonxx]

Thesius

I think its too late buddy. Society has gone to me its lost its soul.

Culture is pretty meaningless and throw away.Nothing lasts.I saw Sparatcus at Christmas and reflected on Kirk Douglas and the other actors of the generation. Toadays actors have maybe one or 2 great movies then disapear. Russel Crowe had only a few.They are all CGI and publicity can any of these actors stand in Kirk Douglas Shadow. John Wayne Even who was not a great actor but had great presence. I feel John wayne could put todays action heroes over his knee.

Pop Music/ We had Presley. Sinatra. The Beatles,Bob Dylan. What we have now is manufactures so called mimers produced by TV company and ad executives.

The girls singers are basically cladly dressed pole dancers with a little bit of noise to titilate adolesent school boys and influence young girls to dress tartily and get pregnant.

Sorry for been down on todays society but wheres the good stuff.Were poisoning the planet,Getting obese on consumerism, and to be honest maybe man kind is gonna burn itself out quicker than we all think.

My son loves history and learning and it makes me very happy and he is full of pride and a good person as a whole.

Give me good old fashioned priciples any day. During the summer I took him hiking in the lake district and he loved it. He was tired out but loved it.

regards

kenny

[Phoebus]

OK, forgive me for playing the Devil's Advocate here...

I think many of us are all too quick to forget that we are not so different from the many people we admire from the past.

Silly pop music and Emmys versus Nobel prizes and such? I think we're forgetting that men such as Socrates, Aristotle, etc., were part of a cultural elite. I think it also goes saying that men like Plato didn't always think of their contemporaries as being particularly stellar. We're talking about a society that very much embraced sex (prostitutes--adult and not), violence (Pankrateion), and "pop" culture (comedies, often vulgar; music).

Heck, even that celebrated bard, Homer, made the Iliad and Odyssey famous through violent, sexual themes.

Where our reverence (or lack thereof) for history and such is concerned, I would point out that this is hardly historically inconsistent. Appreciation for history and such has long been mostly a province of the educated and priviliged. For every Lord Byron, for example, there were millions of Britons who knew little or nothing about Hellas' contribution to Europe, and cared less to go fight for her.

In fact, and off the top of my head, I would posit that true appreciation for history--society wide, that is--typically comes when the past has an almost religious hold on a people. Think ancestor worship, connections between creation myths and the state (a-la the dual Heraclid kingship of Sparta), etc.

It also doesn't help matters that much of history is muddled, convoluted, and subject to change depending on the school of thought currently prevailing among academics. I mean, one could write volumes on what they *thought* of, say, the Spartans, Alexander, etc.... But I suspect one would fill far fewer ones on what we actually *know*. And yes... that does affect how people feel about studying and investing in something.

EDITED FOR GRAMMAR.

[Theseus]

Thesius

I think its too late buddy. Society has gone to me its lost its soul.

Culture is pretty meaningless and throw away.Nothing lasts.I saw Sparatcus at Christmas and reflected on Kirk Douglas and the other actors of the generation. Toadays actors have maybe one or 2 great movies then disapear. Russel Crowe had only a few.They are all CGI and publicity can any of these actors stand in Kirk Douglas Shadow. John Wayne Even who was not a great actor but had great presence. I feel John wayne could put todays action heroes over his knee.

Pop Music/ We had Presley. Sinatra. The Beatles,Bob Dylan. What we have now is manufactures so called mimers produced by TV company and ad executives.

The girls singers are basically cladly dressed pole dancers with a little bit of noise to titilate adolesent school boys and influence young girls to dress tartily and get pregnant.

Sorry for been down on todays society but wheres the good stuff.Were poisoning the planet,Getting obese on consumerism, and to be honest maybe man kind is gonna burn itself out quicker than we all think.

My son loves history and learning and it makes me very happy and he is full of pride and a good person as a whole.

Give me good old fashioned priciples any day. During the summer I took him hiking in the lake district and he loved it. He was tired out but loved it.

regards

kenny

Kenny, Past of me feels that is is hopeless too, but there is a part of me that wont give up. I am planning on going to college and will pursue a masters in either teaching ancient history-specializing in Greece or being an archeologist. I want others to have the same love for history that we do here and I wont go down without a good fight. Yes the damn college here dropped their entire ancient Roman and Greek course but we have plans to move and I know I'll find a college that still has these subjects.

Our culture is going down hill in my opinion and I feel helpless to make any difference in that, but at least you and I can give our children a taste of culture and knowledge that will broaden their minds and hopefully add to their knowledge of our world. I refuse to let them sit on their butts and watch Nickelodeon and Disney all day. Yeah I let them have a few shows. It's great though when I'm sitting and watching a special on Egypt or Greece and they sit right next to me and enjoy it too. They both like Alexander too. I was debating letting them watch 300, but with all that's on tv these days that will seem tame.

You don't want to know my comment on the "stars" of today. Britney, Paris, Lindsey, ect.... trashy comes to mind. I do listen to music from before my time and love the Doors. What amazing lyrics and music threy gave us.If Jim were still alive today I think they would still do an album once in a while.

We do have to hold on to our morals and principles when it comes to raising our kids. Hiking is great and puts you in touch with nature. We go camping all the time in the summer. No tv, just nature and our family.

[jasonxx]

Thesius I like your style and dedication. The Doors connection is interesting. Did you know Jim Morrison fashioned himself on Alexander the way he stood and tilted his head. I like some Doors stuff and find Jim Morrison fascinating. Ive read a few bits and to be honest the guy was pretty complicated and basically destroyed his own head.

He definately thought outside the box. A bit like Lennon but in my opinion much deeper.Lennon was a great song writer but weak wear as he let Yoko Ono mess his head up.

My son is 8 and my daughter is 6 they have both seen 300 and dont take the violence too serios but they both still cry when Leonidas dies. I dont stop my children watching most things as I feel it important for them to see ask questions and hopefully find a perspective.Leonidas is basically folk law hero and we all look for and need a hero.

Some might call it gratuotous violence. Life and society is full of gratuotous violence anyway. Just turn on any news channel. The newscaster basically relish in disaster and violence. most other things it seems just isnt news.

My son sat all the way through Spartacus asking questions I tried to clarify as much as I could. Like Spartacus died in battle etc etc and he basically relished the fame and chose to stay in Rome and fight.

Then my son asked the inevitable question. Would Alexander have beaten the Romans. All said was against people of the Calibre of Crassus yes. Julius Caesar and Pompey a little more even. But i still feel Alexander had the edge with inovation and cavalry to run roud Caesar and Pompey.

regards

kenny

[Theseus]

Thesius I like your style and dedication. The Doors connection is interesting. Did you know Jim Morrison fashioned himself on Alexander the way he stood and tilted his head. I like some Doors stuff and find Jim Morrison fascinating. Ive read a few bits and to be honest the guy was pretty complicated and basically destroyed his own head.

He definately thought outside the box. A bit like Lennon but in my opinion much deeper.Lennon was a great song writer but weak wear as he let Yoko Ono mess his head up.

My son is 8 and my daughter is 6 they have both seen 300 and dont take the violence too serios but they both still cry when Leonidas dies. I dont stop my children watching most things as I feel it important for them to see ask questions and hopefully find a perspective.Leonidas is basically folk law hero and we all look for and need a hero.

Some might call it gratuotous violence. Life and society is full of gratuotous violence anyway. Just turn on any news channel. The newscaster basically relish in disaster and violence. most other things it seems just isnt news.

My son sat all the way through Spartacus asking questions I tried to clarify as much as I could. Like Spartacus died in battle etc etc and he basically relished the fame and chose to stay in Rome and fight.

Then my son asked the inevitable question. Would Alexander have beaten the Romans. All said was against people of the Calibre of Crassus yes. Julius Caesar and Pompey a little more even. But i still feel Alexander had the edge with inovation and cavalry to run roud Caesar and Pompey.

regards

kenny

Thank you Kenny and the same to you! I have such respect for you and how you are raising your children to know the rich history of our past.

I didn't know that about Jim and Alexander, very interesting. Now that you mention that I recall that Jim did tilt his head just slightly and everything Jim did was intentional and thought out. He was very intelligent but a tortured soul. My parents exposed me to the Beatles and the Doors. I do like the Beatles, but the Doors just facinated me. The words weaved like a web and captured my attention. The meanings to their songs are so deep. They were way ahead of their time. I read some where that some people (teens) in Russia had heard their music only just recently and were wondering when they were going to tour there, they thought it was a new band!!

My kids are 12, 9, 5 and 3. Yeah big family I know, we started young. I am definately going to let them watch 300. It will be hard to see the end, but it's important for them to see that even if you face odds that aren't in your favor that you should give it your all and be brave because it can make a difference. Leonidas can still teach us some things today. When they watched Alexander they got upset when Hephaestion and Alexander died. It's hard to watch but there are lessons to learn and it doesn't always end happily.

My two oldest even the 5 year old liked Rome-the mini series and were upset when Verenus died. What a great series that was. I do agree with your opinion that Alexander would have the upper hand over the Romans. Yes they had great commanders, but there is no other like Alexander. He was a genious, plain and simple. I am sure some will argue that, but it's my opinion.

[Vergina Sun]

OK, forgive me for playing the Devil's Advocate here...

I think many of us are all too quick to forget that we are not so different from the many people we admire from the past.

Silly pop music and Emmys versus Nobel prizes and such? I think we're forgetting that men such as Socrates, Aristotle, etc., were part of a cultural elite. I think it also goes saying that men like Plato make it rather abundantyl clear that they by no means thought of their contemporaries as being of a level somehow higher than our own fellow humans. We're talking about a society that very much embraced sex (prostitutes--adult and not), violence (Pankrateion), and "pop" culture (comedies, often vulgar; music).

Heck, even that celebrated bard, Homer, made the Iliad and Odyssey famous through violent, sexual themes.

Where our reverence (or lack thereof) for history and such is concerned, I would point out that this is hardly historically inconsistent. Appreciation for history and such has long been mostly a province of the educated and priviliged. For every Lord Byron, for example, there were millions of Britons who knew little or nothing about Hellas' contribution to Europe, and cared less to go fight for her.

In fact, and off the top of my head, I would posit that true appreciation for history--society wide, that is--typically comes when the past has an almost religious hold on a people. Think ancestor worship, connections between creation myths and the state (a-la the dual Heraclid kingship of Sparta), etc.

It also doesn't help matters that much of history is muddled, convoluted, and subject to change depending on the school of thought currently prevailing among academics. I mean, one could write volumes on what they *thought* of, say, the Spartans, Alexander, etc.... But I suspect one would fill far fewer ones on what we actually *know*. And yes... that does affect how people feel about studying and investing in something.

No need to ask for forgiveness. Devil's Advocates are always welcome here.

Anyway, I believe you made some very interesting points, and find myself agreeing with many of them. Yes, Ancient Greece had many vulgar aspects. I definitely don't agree with all the ways of the Ancient Greeks. There are many things history can teach us - including things to do, and things not to do.

In the past, people have held women and people of color as inferior and not as worthy as the rest. In some places, this idea continues to exist. However, women and colored people have fought for their rights. They have demanded to be treated as equals. In some cases they have lost, in others, they have won. In America, for example, everyone is supposed to be held as an equal regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. Unfortunately, we still have quite a lot of racism, sexism, and homophobics. Perhaps it isn't as blatant as it once was, but we still have people looking down on others who aren't like them. Women are sometimes seen as objects - a view that an Ancient Greek might hold, but something I disagree with strongly. Racism is still in high tensions. If people knew of the great kings of Africa, including Ancient Egypt, the great successes of Spain, countries in South America, the Persian Empire, and all other countries, perhaps they wouldn't be so quick to judge other races.

History, to me, is a vital tool. We need to use it to understand and respect each other. If we want to make advancements in a society, we must know where we came from, what mistakes have been made, and how we have dealt with problems in the past. I believe it was Edmund Burke who said, "Those who don't know their history are destined to repeat it." The history of the world is there to teach us how to act in the future, not bore us or be a waste of time. If more people actually looked at mistakes and successes that have been made by past societies, we could get past our vulgar mindset and move forward as a society.

[Phoebus]

Vergina,

Agreed. If you read my previous post on the state of the US primary educational system, you know how I feel about our ability to learn from history.

Sadly, until that, more basic, problem is solved... foreign cultures and marvels of the past will be little more than a curiosity--and, probably more often, something to be ridiculed.

[Vergina Sun]

Vergina,

Agreed. If you read my previous post on the state of the US primary educational system, you know how I feel about our ability to learn from history.

Sadly, until that, more basic, problem is solved... foreign cultures and marvels of the past will be little more than a curiosity--and, probably more often, something to be ridiculed.

Oh yes. I have read your post on US primary education. It certainly is very sad how we lack the initiative to care for education at all. Yes, history is very important, but education overall is worth more. It's unbelievable how so many don't understand the rest of the world, and then wonder why. If we ever considered what conflicts had happened in the past, we could avoid or come up with better solutions in the present. I'm hoping in the future, we learn to solve that problem, but sometimes we just seem to be deteriorating.