Alexanders Greek Additions?

[kennyxx]

HailIts sometimes said Alexander took Greek troops as part of his Helenism and his respect. Absolute tosh. He took the Greeks out of pure propoganda and to be reasonably sure of Greek good behaviour. They were nothing but hostages.The Greeks paid no primary role in any of Alexanders battles nor were they trusted with key positions in his command. To Alexander the Greeks were as useful as a chocholate Fire guard. He knew how the Greeks behaved as a whole and how they felt about Macedon. It was like taking a group of Cackling old women on the siege.With regarding Alexander feeling Helen Im sure he did up to a point it suited him. As soon as he had attained as much as he could liberated Persepolis and abandoned the Crusade he soon dumped that Propogandal idea.The Guy was pure Macedonian and eventually world owner. I dont know what he thought of himself at the End. Not Greek hardly Macadonian. Basically the owner of the whole darned thing eventually.The Empire was basically Macedonian. AS was the Roman not Italian Empire.Kenny

[Kokino Kolo]

your a comedian purely.i bet you jumped on the bandwagon when Oliver Stone made Alexander. you have read a couple of books and all of a sudden your an 'expert'.no knowledge whatsoever of how the ancient greek world was structured.

[kokino koli]

'Educating the mind without educating the heart is no education at all'Aristotle

[Kokino Kolo]

Alexander The Great addressing the dead Hellenes at the Battle of Chaerona:"Holy shadows of the dead,I`m not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate,but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people,to fight one another.I do not feel happy for this victory of mine.On the contrary,I would be glad brothers if I had all of you standing here next to me,since we are united by the same language,the same blood and the same visions-Curtius Rufus- "Historia"

[kennyxx]

Where does that stuff come from. Aristlotle was basically a racist Elitist. And I doubt Alexander said those words at all about the Greeks at Cheronae.Someones just a little dreamy here.

[Efstathios]

Kenny, is it really you posting?I dont remember you being so flaming in your posts. I wouldnt trust Kurtius Rufus,but when he said "the same greek language,and the same greek blood" i dont think he had any reason to lie about it.Maybe Alexander didnt say those words,but the fact that Kurtius Rufus have said them is important.Because Kurtius Rufus was not far from that era,and with these words that he use he may reflect a general truth or belief.And when he said "the same greek language" he must have been correct because either it is false or it is true.If it was false everyone would know about it.The macedonians themselves,the romans,the athenians, and whoever else read his works.But in order to write something like that then it must have been true. Kenny,i think you have read Badian too much.It's good to see a different oppinion,but not take it as the truth necesserily.Only Alexander knew the truth behind his words.Only Phillip knew the truth behind his actions.And as we have said sometimes 2 things can be equaly right.Philip may have really wanted for greeks to be united but in the same time he may have used that as an advantage too.Why not?

[bob]

Ok, this post was helpful, but with no sources mentioned. As per my Alexander considering himself greek discussion below, this is where I am confused. You stated Alexander used Greek troops as hostages, I agree. See that in Green for example. You state Alexander never appointed the Greeks to the same posts he did macedonains, I agree, see that in Green. What I DO NOT UNDERSTAND and what I NEED TO UNDERSTAND (without touching on modern politics) is why the Greeks then considered the Makedonians barbarians, and Greek. This doesn't make sense, either they were Greek, or barbarian. How Greek did Alexander consider his Makedonians? What exactly was the Hellenism Alexander spread? Guys, I posted one ancient quote in Greek as a counter arguement. I know there are some counter sources, I need more. (See the Greek in Daniel chapter 8, the word used is one that suggest Hellen). SInce Mt. Olympus is more in Macedonia (it is to the North) is it possible many barbarian states to the north (like Thrace) hold the same religion as thse in Southern Greece? How did Makedonian culture affect the religion of Sparta and Athens for example???

[bob]

When Plutarch, Arrian, Rufus, or Diodorus quote Alexander, how accurate can we hold these statements? Don't many scholars think these quotes are later mythized quotes, that may have some earlier basis? What do we know of the sources like Ptolemy and Aristobulus?

[amyntoros]

My very first instinct this morning was to post and ask WHY, when we already had two threads on this forbidden and inflammatory subject, do we now have a THIRD? Although I understand that there are one or two members trying to have a sensible, historically-based discussion, this subject simply begs for the attention of the extreme nationalists. Therefore, it might be more effective to illustrate just why the Greek/Macedonian debate is considered inappropriate. The Curtius quote which no one has heard of before can be found on two websites. One is a Greek Nationalist site; the other is the Stormfront Nationalist Community with a banner that reads GÇô White Pride: World Pride.Will this get this thread deleted and this nonsense stopped before people who are interested in the historical Alexander start staying away from Pothos in droves? AGAIN!!!!!!Amyntoros

[Paralus]

G'day AmyntorosYes, I agree.I don't think that's exactly where Kenny was headed but it's where the ratbag roller coaster of rampant nationalism has diverted it.That anyone would pin a position on a "speech" reported by (better written as just "by") Curtius Rufus explains plenty. A melodramatic rhetoritician turned historian makes for interesting lines for strange people. If the speeches in Thucydides are to be treated with extreme caution, the "speeches" that Curtius creates for his players are to be viewed largely as window dressing.On the point, yes I do believe the 6-7,000 odd (including The Athenian "armada" of twenty triremes) were performing the duties of "goodwill" hostages.Paralus

[kokino kolo]

One Athenian (demosthenes) calls the Macedonians 'barbarians' and all of a sudden the Macedonians arent greek. please!!do you really think the ancient greeks would have a barbarian as a leader of all greeks. do you beleive the ancient greeks with their superiority would have a non-greek heading the League of Corinth.

[bob]

My sincere apologies if I offended anyone.
Bob

[bob]

Well, that is a good question. Did the Greeks elect Philip as head of the league because he was the strongest military power? Do you beleive the Greeks were happy with Philip or Alexander as head of the league? If this string needs to be deleted, that is fine, and I do not mean to continue it if it is annoying people. I thought more Greeks than just Demosthenes considered them Barbarians.
Right now, I am sad, it appears that:
1. I have offended people
2. I asked for some discussion of the quotes I presented, form the ancients, that implies differences between Macedonians and Greeks. I got very few replies, and it turned into a heated modern political discussion, when I intended and hoped for feed back. I understand I am part of the problem, I put 5 big posts of quotes up, I should have posted one or two. Too much info to reply too may be why I got no replies on the quotes themselves.
3. If anyone would like to discuss Arians quote on "racial rivalry" and explain that one, this would be a good start for me. If people need to do it privately, with me, to avoid annoying everyone else, I understand.
Nonetheless, I did not intend harm with my initial 5 posts that started the roller coaster. Nor am I a greek or balkan, thus, am content living in America. What I would like is help understanding the ancient quotes.

[Efstathios]

Kokino kolo.That doesnt prove anything,because the southern greeks were not powerfull enough to resist to Macedonia anyway.If there were some people that didnt want Phillip to rule the amfictionia then they couldnt do anything about it.The spartans were not as powerfull as they were in the past,the athenians didnt even wanted to consider trying to go to war,and the thebeans were smashed twice by phillip and Alexander. The ruling force in the hellenistic period was Macedonia.Period... About the Kurtius' extract: And i kept wondering how did i miss such an extract when i read Kurtius's work.That explains it.Anyway,some people may use false texts to add to their statements,but there are many serious researchers out there who dont need to do that. Bob there are many counter sources as you say (real sources),but to mention all of them it would take many pages.I'll see if i can find a link (a non-propagandistic or whatever link) that may help you.

[Paralus]

G'day BobIt's not necessarily you. It's others who would take this sort of thing and use for their own purposes.Efsthasios is absolutely right: the power in the Hellenistic period (well 350s down to say 197) was Macedonia and its splinter kingdoms.It was at its hight at the time of Philip and Alexander. The other Greeks had about as much choice in the matter of the hegemon of the "League" as did the Austrians in recognising Nazi Germany as their ruler. None.And as I've said before, in Greek Polis tradition, it was fiercely resented.Paralus