circumcision

[canto]

I have a question that is kinda strange, I guess. At another group they were talking about the ancient greeks not being circumcised, but that the Egyptians and Persians believed in it. Does anyone here know of this?lightofdawn

[ancientlibrary]

Certainly the Greeks were not circumcised. They
found the practice revolting and very un-Greek. I
recall the Egyptians were circumcized, but I don't
remember ever hearing that the Persians were.
I rather doubt it, but I've been wrong before..Anyway, I principally answer this so I could give
my favorite passage from the Book of
Maccabees (1.13ff). The author describes the
slide of many Jews into Greek practices:."He [Antiochus Epiphanes] authorized them tao
observe the ordinances of the Gentiles. So they
built a gymnasium in Jerusalem, according to
the Gentile custom, and they removed the
marks of circumcision, and abandoned the holy
covenant.".The two practices--gymnasium attendance and
circumcision--were, of course, linked. When you
exercised naked, everyone can tell whether you
are or not. For an upwardly mobile Jew looking
to pass for cultured and cosmopolitan,
circumcision was therefore a serious handicap,
like a bad accent or unfashionable clothes, but
more permanent. Certainly the passage raises
the question "How do you remove
circumcision?" And, amazingly, I understand
there is a description of the process in some
Greek medical text..

[yiannis]

I'm speechless!
I mean I knew about the Greek influence amongst the Jewish people (even Hanukah is related) but I'd never expected that they could reverse a circumcision back then! Any ideas on the how?

[Alex K.]

Does anyone know when the two people (Jews and Hellenes) started having cultural contact? Were the cultural differences as pronounced as the ideologies can be made out to be?Certainly an interesting chapter to which history hasn't shed much light on...

[amyntoros]

There's a book by Max Radin called The Jews among the Greeks and Romans that seems to cover this subject fairly extensively. There was contact before Alexander, 'much of it in the slave mart, no doubt as buyers and the bought.' There were Tyrian traders in Jerusalem before Nehemiah, and 'before him, perhaps before the Exile, Joel reproaches the Phoenicians with the words, "The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians." Syrus had become a common slave-name in Greece in the fifth century, and Syrus might include anything.' A footnote tells that 'in Isaiah, Jewish captives are to be assembled "from Assyria, Egypt - and from the islands of the sea" (Isaiah xi. ii), a passage indubitably pre-Exilic. The "islands of the sea," however, are obviously Greek.'That seems to be it for the period pre-Alexander - scattered and uncertain hints, as the book says. However, 'Greek contact with "Syria" became vastly more intimate at the time of Alexander, and around 300 B.C. was the time that umistakable knowledge of the Jews themselves, as a separate nationality of Syrians, is evidenced in extant Greek writers.' Best regards,Linda Ann

[yiannis]

Moreover Greek pottery - preceding Alexander - was found in excavations in Judea. So some short of commercial exchange was happening already since early times. During Christian times and Paul's trips to Greece & Rome he repeatedly had spoken or was accommodated by fellow-Jews in Greek cities (Philippi, Athens, Corinth to name a few).But no-one has answered my question on how does one hide his circumcision ))

[amyntoros]

Okay, having done a Google search with the strangest keywords to date (and obviously having too much time on my hands) I found out that the procedure for reversing a circumcision is called epispasm; it was commonly done in ancient times for various reasons, and reached the height of its popularity in the first century AD.A very informative site which includes a description of the procedure is at:http://www.cirp.org/library/restoration/hall1/The writer calls epispasm the Cadillac of correctives and says, 'At a time before effective anesthesia, a man inclined to try this procedure had Celsus' assurance that it was "not so very painful."'Yeah, right... :-)Best regards,Linda Ann

[Kostas]

The first contact with Greek and Jews was around the 11-13h century BC during the time of the Trojan war. The "people of the sea" as they have been recorded by the Egyptians left mainly the island of Crete and colonised areas in Egypt and where today is Libanon-Israel. There were called Philistines and later on this name became Palestine by paraphrasing. The jews were not leaving at the time there but came a bit later and collided with the Philistines-Greeks. (Goliath and David). The Greek presence was always in the area since then and of course it gained a peak at Alexander's time. At this time the Jews became more hellenised adopting Greek customs, culture etc (westernised). Of course there were the conservative elements (Maccabae)(like the Taliban today) who could not accept that jewish tradition and religion was not observed and could be in danger. These elements were killing other hellenised Jews as well as Greeks and Antiochos (general of Alexander) had to intervene and chase them. (one first act was the use of Solomon's temple as a Greek temple). This was an unholly act for the jews and there was the revolt of the Maccabae. (it is still a day celebrated by the Jews today) The two cultures completely different and diverse came unavoidably into a collision. The next collision came with the Romans for the same more or less reasons leading to the destruction of the temple by the Romans and the dispersal of the Jews on 70 AD.