Sorry / Moderator

[jona]

A couple of hours ago, I replied to someone and asked two questions which I thought were relevant and could be debated without too much trouble. I thought that a debate about the "why" of the Macedonian debate could be separated from the debate itself. Within hours, I discovered I was wrong.Although I have seen several honest and fair replies and have learned a lot, this was not what I intended.If the moderator removes my previous post, that's fine with me.Jona

[jan]

Jona, I do not know what the heck this post is about as far as the Greeks and Macedonians are concerned, Alexander is Macedonian but wanted favor from Athens and wanted deification and recognition also.But my point in this post is to remember that in studying Alexander, one must judge him by what he believed his mission and purpose to be, not by what the Romans thought of him, not what Britian, India, or what any other nations thought of him, but what drove him from within himself.I read your remarks about Jesus. Jesus is the god of peacemakers, and Alexander is obviously a god of war, as recognized by Egypt, Persia, and at last, even Greece.Sad to say that many Christians behave like disciples of Alexander rather than of Jesus when they proclaim war against other nations such as George Bush and Tony Blair have done against Saddam Hussein.A true Christian is a peacemaker, despite all the crusades, all the wars, and battles to prove otherwise. Only the peace corps created by JFK in the 60's is a place for men of peace to join.Alexander is a warrior god. He believed in his cause, his mission, and his belief and faith assured him of success. He sent many people to a reward, heavenly or otherwise is not known, but it is his responsibility for their deaths that his fame is known. You are correct in distinguishing between the two, but to judge Alexander fairly, you must consider him in his day and age and time to know that he was giving back to the Persians just what they had given to the Greeks. India is another matter altogether, and may justify the belief that Alexander was simply greedy for power.I believe he just wanted to rule the then known world as far as he could, and probably still does, even today. A one world concept!

[Linda]

I think it is a shame the issue you raised cannot be discussed, about the debate, rather than the debate itself. Two questions I have - firstly - what did the word Greek mean, in those days, and how is that different from now, and also, what did Alexander himself call himself - did he think of himself as Greek and Macedonian, and did his perception change througout his life? Did Philip start off as non-Greek and become Greek? Like, say, Jona has always been European and Dutch , but Marcus and myself were probably not born European, but probably now are, as well as being British (and English and Scottish)?Is this acceptable discussion - as it is about what the people themselves thought? Linda

[jona]

"I think it is a shame the issue you raised cannot be discussed, about the debate, rather than the debate itself."Actually, it's not that bad. Today I reread everything and although I am still surprised about the intensity of the debate, I like to point out that there was only one single message that could be read as a personal attack. For internet standards, this is quite good.On the other hand, I think it is indeed a bit sad. Every nation has its peculiarities. Our Dutch "Zwarte Piet" is widely considered to be racist, and although we disagree, we understand that he is unacceptable to foreigners. (E.g., we did not use him during the EC Football Championships.) On the Italian television, women are shown as if they are sexy decoration; most visitors think this is shocking, but at least you can discuss this with Italians. I remember that in Iran, we had many conversations about the Islamic dress code, including one with a clergyman in the holy city of Qom. We didn't agree, but a reasonable discussion was always possible.What continues to surprise me is that a civilized nation like Greece is unable to see that many foreigners consider its cult of Alexander as profoundly shocking. But I immediatelt add that I found the responses of several people with Greek names in this forum kind and friendly.Jona

[marcus]

Just out of interest, Linda, what do you mean by "European" in this instance, as in "probably not born European"?Marcus

[matz]

Dear friends,I thought a few times whether to post before I did it, simply because I could not see any point, and I have already written on the subject:
http://pothos.org/archives/showmessage. ... geID=14436
But then again, here's a few lines for the ones that are of non-Greek and non-Macedonian background.It is unfortunate that the history of ancient Macedonia could not be studied without such profound political interests involved. This whole issue has been intensified after Macedonia became independent country.It is unfortunate that Greece uses ancient history to justify their possession of 51% of the territory that was once Macedonia. This territory is not at stake anymore, nor will it ever be in the future because Macedonians have been pretty much exterminated. There have been a few population exchanges in the region under various pretexts in the first half of the 20th century, nazi-like style. I rarely see anyone on the net intersted in that. So if anything is at stake, that would be the embarassment before the world, lawsuits and compensation claims and consequences that go with that.So for the people unfamiliar with the politics in the region is sometimes difficult to discern genuine history from modern political debates. I have understanding for them. I have understanding for the position in which both Greeks and Macedonians have been brought into by the terrible politics of their ancestors.Alexander has ages ago broken the boundaries and belongs to all the peoples on the planet. But that does not exempt Macedonians (nor does the Greeks) to have him as their own. As for the Macedonians, the book by Aleksandar Donski, ridiculed by many of our Greek friends, would give an insight to anyone interested into the 16-20th centruries folk lore in Macedonia and how the people then perceived Karan(us), Philip, Alexander, Justinian etc.As far as the modern peoples in Greece and Macedonia are concerned, time and study will tell who they are. And does it really matter in the end? Calling upon racial purity since ancient times smells like rasicm and nazism to me.All the best,

[yiannis]

Oh God, here we go again!
If anything folks, you'll have to agree that this conversation never misses to heat up things around here :-)Just to make things clear, the population relocation agreements of the 1920's concerned Greeks coming from the ex-Ottoman empire exchanged with the Turks living in Greece and the Bulgarians living in Greece relocated to Bulgaria in exchange for the Greeks living in Bulgaria. No "Macedonians" were involved because they were, of course, Greeks so they get to stay where they were! But this is a story for another forum, not Pothos...
(sorry but I'll keep on replying as long as I see these posts... apologies)

[marcus]

That's right, Yiannis.I was pleased to see Jona asking the question of why Alexander is important to the modern political debate.I was not pleased, however, to see more modern political agendas once more rearing their heads.I suppose it was unavoidable, but can we please just STOP! and get back to discussing Alexander (the warm, cuddly, lovable mass murderering god)?All the bestMarcus

[Linda]

MarcusI meant by "born European" is that there has been a shift in the perception of who Europeans are, in the UK. 50 years ago few people would have describe themselves as part of Europe, whereas, a bet a good few do now. Political change has brought it about, inthe form of the EU. So, Philip may not have thought of himself as Greek, although he may have claimed to have the right to be in the Games, but Alexander may have thought of himself as Greek, by the end of his life.JonaMost military heroes are disliked abroad - perhaps the Greeks thought it was such a long time ago, that no-one would mind, say, the Italians putting up pictures of Caesar. But blowing your own country's trumpet is always a dangerous thing to do.

[marcus]

That's what I assumed you meant, Linda, but I wanted to check. :-)It's always confusing - I was born post-Treaty of Rome, but pre-UK entry to EEC ... on the other hand, while I have some concerns about the way the EU's going, I actually like Europe (hey, some of my best friends are European!) ... but, ultimately, if someone asks me I'd always say I'm "English".So I reckon your analysis was spot on.All the bestMarcus