Three questions

[amyntoros]

I''m posting three different questions here as I suspect they may all have simple answers and this way I won't waste forum space with separate threads. The first concerns the Rock of Chorienes - I simply cannot get my head around the information found in Arrian.-á The rock rose some 12,000 feet and was surrounded at the base by a deep ravine.-á Rather than just filling it up, Alexander ordered ladders made from tall pine trees, as it was the only way to enable his men to descend into the ravine. They worked day and night and were employed in driving stakes "in its narrowest part, just so far apart from one another that they could be strong enough to bear and hold together the loads piled upon them.-á They would then fix upon the stakes withies plaited into wicker-work, very much in the shape of a bridge, bind these closely together and heap earth on them from above, so that the approach for the troops to the rock might be on the level".-á Arrian also says the work was so hard they only managed about thirty feet in a daylight shift, with half of all his men being on duty.-á So what does this mean? Is it that the "stakes" were the full height of the pine trees? If so, I can imagine the difficulties in driving such tall lengths into the ground. Surely anything shorter would have to bear such a great weight of earth that there would be risk of collapse unless the stakes were exceedingly close together. And if this were the case, why not just throw the trees and earth into the ravine as was done previously? Is there anyone with an engineering bent that can better explain to me how this might have been done? Second question is regarding medicine/surgery in Alexander's time.-á I've been told about a book called The Treatment of War Wounds in Graeco-Roman Antiquity (Studies in Ancient Medicine, Vol 21) by Christine F. Salazar (Editor). Its a bit pricey at almost ninety dollars, but is actually cheaper than most other volumes in the series. Does anyone know anything about this series or of any other compilations on ancient medicine? Or perhaps someone can give me references to ancient sources? I'm interested in the use of herbs as well as surgery.
Final question: I was glancing through a book at Barnes & Noble, The Ancient Engineers by L. Sprague de Camp.-á He says: "As metalworking techniques advanced, iron began to take the place of bronze for armor.-á Alexander the Great is the first man known to have worn an iron helmet."-á I know about Alexa

[amyntoros]

I know about Alexander's iron helmet, of course, but does that sound credible, that he was the first to wear one? -á It has the feel of another Alexander myth, but perhaps it is correct.-á Or maybe, Alexander's is simply the first iron helmet to be mentioned in a surviving ancient source.-á Opinions, anyone, please?Thanks and best regards,Linda Ann

[marcus]

Hi Linda,As far as the first question is concerned, PA Brunt in his Loeb translation of Arrian speculates that the 'height' given must surely mean the distance to the top, rather than its actual height. That is, when one took the winding path up to the top. I have had similar problems getting my head around everything else, but if the height of the rock is sufficiently decreased as per Brunt, it wouldn't be quite so difficult...?As far as the iron helmet is concerned, surely that's a myth. I'm absolutely sure that many of the helmets that have been discovered from the 5th century were also iron. Of course, I can't give you any specific examples - perhaps a search on the British Museum website?All the bestMArcus

[Tre]

About the helmets - Alexander is the first mentioned to have worn one. We don't have iron helmets to look at - they rust and go away. The only one we have from that time is the one found in Tomb II at Vergina taht I am aware of (things could change!). Scholars speculate for this very reason that it may be Alexander's, but I rather doubt that. In my view it is unlikely that Alexander only sported an iron helmet, however, they were probably not common as iron was harder to work.Regards,TrePS I believe I've read the book you refer too-it is her doctoral thesis. It's pretty good, but borrow it from a library via interlibrary loan.

[amyntoros]

I think the issue here is the depth of the ditch infront of the rock, rather than the total height to the top. If I'm getting any kind of correct image, it seems like Alexander had the stakes driven into the bottom of the ditch (something like pylons) to support a "bridge" over the ditch. So it looks like the ditch was too deep to fill with trees and earth in the usual manner - or perhaps sufficient trees were not available in this area? I just don't know.

[amyntoros]

I agree with you and Marcus on the iron helmet, but I need to find either earlier written references to iron helmets, or archeological evidence. I'll follow Marcus's tip and check out the British Museum.I found out that the book on war wounds is available at a reference library some distance from me so I'll check it out. (They no longer do inter-library loans here in NYC - budget cuts!) If you read the book, do you remember the chapter on Alexander's wounds? There is a Bryn Mawr Classical Review of the book on the web which says the author "rightly finds in ancient accounts of Alexander the quintessential example of how scenes of wounding can be used in literary characterization. Neither strictly accurate nor perhaps wholly fictitious." Now that's the first time I've seen his actual wounds questioned!Linda Ann

[marcus]

Hi Linda,I was so intrigued that I spent about 20 minutes this morning doing Google searches for Greek iron helmets. The only things I could find were reproductions, for which the originals were undated... and my colleagues are now 100% convinced of my weirdness.The British Museum site isn't any help, as far as I could see - they had one picture of a bronze helmet, but nothing else. Perhaps try the Met in New York? Or the Athens Arch Museum?All the bestMarcus

[yiannis]

Don't worry Marcus, I did the same!Found these:
http://www.royalathena.com/pages/greekc ... /PPB07.htm
http://www.artmuseums.harvard.edu/sardi ... tmlNothing much...

[marcus]

Yep, I found both of those!Unfortunately, they're both too late.(But they are impressive)All the bestMarcus

[beausefaless]

From Thales to Euclid of Alexandria. Trestles & Earth was the way. First who's to say the translators of Arrian did not make the mistake of 1,200 ft. to 12,000 ft. Anyway Alexander's engineers would direct the army to build trestles the appropriate distance apart (the length of the trees) and then lay down the logs in a horizontal position, a rectangular box frame between the trestles, building one box frame at a time they would fill each frame with large rocks and earth material as they went along.

[amyntoros]

Way to go Andrew! And thank you. This description makes much more sense than anything I could work out from Arrian, though I'm still wondering why they didn't just dump earth and rocks directly into the ditch - unless, I suppose, the trestles were also a of a great height.Linda Ann

[beausefaless]

As far as the height of the ditch or ravine Marcus makes good sense in his first post. The first trestle will consist of a three or six log triangle formation this depends on the formation of the cliff the second, third trestle /_\ and so on, can be doubled in width and because of the horizontal logs connected to both sides of your trestles you have a very strong bridge with the shape of a pyramid with no chance of collapse, maybe with a huge earthquake. I hope this helps.
All the best,
Andrew

[Tre]

As I recall, there is a mention of how wounds weave into historical writings. Actually there are modern scholars who question whether Alexander was actually hit in the lung, Bosworth and Green being among them. We've discussed Alexander's wounds and illnesses on this forum so you might want to try the archives.As for the reference your requested on Alexander's hair color it is from Aelian's Varia Historia "They say that Alexander, son of Philip, was casually handsome; his hair swept up in a cowlick and was golden in color; they also say that something frightening emanated from his countenance."His eye color has also been discussed on the forum.Regards,Tre

[marcus]

Andrew,That's the first time that an explanation of engineering has ever made the slightest bit of sense to me. :-)It sounds very plausible to a layman like me.I hope Alexander's engineers were better than most of the scaffolders in the UK!Marcus

[amyntoros]

Actually, the second website is perfect and answers my question! I did a quick followup search and found out that the excavations were made in 1988 and the skeleton with the iron helmet nearby was found in the debris of the fortification wall of the lower city of Sardis which was destroyed by the Persians in 547/6 BC. So Alexander was far from the first to wear an iron helmet! Many thanks guys.Linda Ann