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Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:14 pm
by Zebedee
Possibly misreading what is meant, but wouldn't Kassandros' forces be at least of sufficient size to put a field battle into doubt and to prevent the besieged lifting the siege? Would be interested in finding some of Bessios' more recent work on the size of Pydna at this time - my understanding seems to make it almost a double city (the 'new' city a couple of miles inland from the rebuilt older one?).

Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:21 am
by Paralus
Archelaios refounded Pydna further inland. I can't quite recall the distance - five or so kilometres? I've no idea if the redounded site was still occupied and, if so, if they were joined but I'd think not. The sources only mention 'Pydna'. But you are correct: Kassandros' forces had to be large enough to both invest the town and repel any force attempting to relieve it (those sent to the passes and particularly the detachment sent to block Aiakides' entry into Macedonia). Also, Aristonous clearly had a reasonable force which might well have sought to lift the siege. In the event he contented himself with a victory over Kratevus - we'd really like to know just what he was doing after assuming command of Olympias' remaining forces but Diodorus isn't much interested!

On the numbers, one needs to have a look at what can be gleaned. In the meantime I'd add that Polyperchon returned to Macedonia after Magalopolis with a decent part of his army. Those forces left behind will mostly have been allies and mercenaries; the Macedonians returning with him for the "more necessary business" beckoning. Here he loses elephants to Kassandros in a confrontation our sources have edited out (a bit like Plutarch and Paraitakene). The next that is heard of him is the return to Macedonia from Epirus with an army he has "gathered" with Aiakides to put Olympias in charge. This is after Eurydike declared Kassandros regent while the latter was in Macedonia. Polyperchon has lost more than his elephants I fear. But it does not do to push the evidence too far for there is far too much our summary sources do not tell us.

Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:08 am
by agesilaos
Diodoros XVIII 68 i Kassandros has 4,000 infantry from Antigonos, so unlikely to be Macedonians more likely Mercenaries, who will also have formed the garrisons of many of the cities he could call on; Polyperchon has 20,000 Macedonians, 4,000 allies, 1,000 cavalry and 65 elephants during his move on Athens just before Megalopolis. About all I can find at the moment.

Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:52 am
by Paralus
agesilaos wrote:Diodoros XVIII 68 i Kassandros has 4,000 infantry from Antigonos, so unlikely to be Macedonians more likely Mercenaries, who will also have formed the garrisons of many of the cities he could call on; Polyperchon has 20,000 Macedonians, 4,000 allies, 1,000 cavalry and 65 elephants during his move on Athens just before Megalopolis. About all I can find at the moment.
That's all you need - for the moment. Polyperchon is made regent on Antipatros' death and the Macedonians clearly approved (18.54.2). Polyperchon, then, has the 'royal army' along with the kings - the same royal army he tells Eumenes he can invade Asia with (57.4). Kassandros, a renegade who has arranged his internal support (likely his later "100"), has only those who might remain loyal to his father as he propagandises. Thus he holds Athens and some Peloponnesian poleis. He scarpers to Antigonos and enlarges what he has by the 4,000. He continues to hold Athens and a number of Peloponnesian poleis while Polyperchon, a failure at Athens and at Megalopolis, retires north. Now some (cannot call them to mind) opine that Polyperchon went to Asia at this time. This because our summary sources do not tell us what he did outside of Diodorus' "other more necessary business". This involved sending Kleitos and the fleet to the Hellespont - near certainly from Macedonia as Klietos was with Polyperchon (Plut. Phoc. 34.2; Diod. 18.66.1-3) - but not himself as far as the evidence shows. What we do know is that Polyperchon was beginning to be "regarded with contempt" and "most of the Greek cities deserted" him for Kassandros (74.1). Further, he "seemed to lack both energy and wisdom in representing the kings and his allies". Being viewed this way by Greeks and allies is dangerous enough but just how much more will the Macedonians have felt this? Thus just after this, as Diodorus only alludes to (18.75.1; 19.35.7), Kassandros engineered something of a political and military defeat of Plod where he gains a decent number of his elephants. It is readily apparent that it was not limited to the elephants as Plod next turns up with an army "gathered" from scratch with Aiakides.

Eurydike has read the dispatches from the south and instated Kassandros as her king's regent and general and more than just the inhabitants were coming over to him (18.75.1); the army, too, must have begun to transfer. Diodorus does not bother to record it but Kassandros was well aware of the propensity of the Macedonians and, more importantly, the soldiers to change sides. As they would again.

Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:18 pm
by agesilaos
Before launching into a long essay I would just like to say that there is some evidence to support Xenophon’s interpretation that the ‘hopes humbled in a brief time’ may refer to the period between Euia and the beginning of the siege of Pydna . Justin XIV 6 i ‘Sed nec Olympias diu regnavit.’ – ‘But Olympias did not reign for long’ may parallel the phrase in the common source that Diodoros construed into
‘ αἱ μὲν οὖν Ὀλυμπιάδος ἐλπίδες ἐν ὀλίγῳ χρόνῳ τοῦτον τὸν τρόπον ἐταπεινώθησαν.’
Although it also has to be said that ὀλίγῳ χρόνῳ can be one of Diodoros’ own phrases which he sprinkles throughout his work with scant regard for accuracy.

A further extra-Diodoran source has to be mentioned and that is the Marmor Parium (or Parian Marble) a chronographic source supplying archon dates and years before the stele was inscribed (264/3 BC) ,
13) From the sea battle between Cleitus and Nicanor around the temple of the Chalcedonians, and from when Demetrius made laws at Athens, 53 years, when Demogenes was archon at Athens.
14) From when Cassander came back into Macedonia, and Thebes was built and Olympias died and Cassandreia was founded and Agathocles became tyrant of Syracuse, 52 years, when Democleid[es] was archon at Athens. Menander the comic dramatist first won the prize at Athens then.
This source is not without problems, but it is an independent check on the data in Diodoros, and it also places Olympias’ death under the same archon as him (XIX 2 i). Demogenes’ term ran c. July 317 –July 316, and Demokleides July 316 – July 315; since Diodoros tells us that spring was beginning (despite the Loeb’s aberrant ‘spring was coming on’, elsewhere the phrase is translated as ‘at the beginning of spring’, including in the passage on the Rhodian flood) the only April in Demokleides’ term was that of 315.

The whereabouts of Polyperchon during Kassandros invasion is seemingly known, Diodoros says 35 iii that ‘Hearing that Polyperchon and his army were in position in Perrhaebia, [Kassandros] dispatched his general Kallas with an army, ordering to carry out the war with Polyperchon.’ This seems clear, but we are then told that Kassandros’ general Deinas seized the defiles ahead of the soldiers set out by Olympias and, 36 i, Kassandros went through the passes of Perrhaebia, where Polyperchon allegedly has his army! This is a mess, probably arising from a summary of the whole campaign in the original source before it plunged into the tale of brave Eumenes.

When we do meet Polyperchon he is besieged in Azorios on the Thessalian side of the Perrhaebian passes. It would seem that he was not in Macedonia when Kassandros arrived, which also explains why Olympias appoints Aristonous general, the Guardian would otherwise have been in charge but he was absent.

We have an inscription from Nessos near Adrymettion, IG XII2 645 ( ), which honours Thersippos and mentions Polyperchon’s presence in Asia; and this is a possible juncture for a trans-Aegean jaunt. With his keen nose for political reality Polyperchon may have assumed with Olympias installed in Macedonia the war with Kassandros was over and sailed across to Asia to give succour to Arrhidaios the former satrap of Hellespontine Phrygia, who had holed up in Kios on the Propontis (Prusias ad Mare, to the Romans). Contra, Diodoros XVIII 72, it seems unlikely that the battle of the Chalcedonian Temple could have taken place in 318 where Diodoros places it, as Kassandros did not gain control of the Athenian fleet until 317 shortly before Demogenes became archon (Diogenes Laertius V 75 and Diodoros XX45 i both say Demetrios of Phalerum ruled for 10 years, and Plutarch ‘Demetrios’ 8 iii, dates the liberation of Athens to the end of Thargelion 307). The Marmor Parium also dates the battle to the term of Demogenes, between July 317 and July 316.

Polyperchon will have returned from Asia with the etesians of 316 and landed in Thessaly, before sending Kleitos to the Hellespont to interdict an invasion by Antigonos that seems not to have been intended. Nikanor had returned to Athens as Kassandros held no ports in Macedonia and the majority of his fleet were Athenian. It will only have been after the defeat of Kleitos at the Hellespont that the siege will have begun to bite as the sea lanes were now closed to Olympias’ supporters.

Aeacides, cannot have moved in the initial spring, 316 as his defeat clearly caused the collapse of support for Olympias. We need to explain why he did not move on Kassandros as soon as the passes cleared. Diodoros is no help as he has collapsed events, except that his narrative of Aeacides attempt makes it plain that the Epeirots were not over impressed with trying to save Olympias. This cannot be connected with the difficulty of their last intervention, as that ended in the bloodless triumph of Euia. The season should not have been an issue either, so it would seem the outrages of Olympias had alienated her compatriots as well as the Macedonians. The presence of an alternative faction may also have been cultivated by Kassandros, as the new koinon immediately allied itself to him.

The campaigning season of 316 saw little action on the Macedonian front from the Olympiasts other than Aristonous’ victory over Kratevas. It was in April 315 that Aeacides, probably intending a joint move with Polyperchon, invaded and was thwarted by his own men as much Kassandros’ opposition and the cascade of failure drove Olympias to surrender. Monimos followed suit and Aristonous, who was hopeful of help from Polyperchon and Alexander, and ignorant of the fate of Eumenes, finally obeyed a direct order from Olympias and paid the price. It will be now that Poyperchon’s men too deserted the lost cause and he fled Azorios.

The dissolution of the relieving army sits much better with the context of an already lost cause than only two or three months into a siege IMHO.

Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:26 pm
by Paralus
I do think you’ve got a few things out of kilter in that summation. All of the chronological systems proposed have Antipatros’ death in the late summer/autumn of 319 (BCHP 3 notes his return to Europe spring of this year). This means that Eumenes confinement at Nora must be spring 319 to spring 318. The commencement of hostilities between Arrhidaios (the satrap) and Antigonos must then be dated to late autumn when the former besieges Kyzikos for he sends forces to help Eumenes (Diod.19.52.4) which can only have happened over the winter 319/18.

Diodorus begins Book 19 noting that this was the year of Demogenes’ Archonship (7/317-7/316). Chapters one through nine relate Sicilian matters and ten, Roman. At chapter eleven, still in Demogenes’ year, he relates the return of Olympias, Euia and the murder of Philip III Arrhidaios. These actions belong to late summer /autumn 317 (Philip had ruled for six years and four months) and so Diodorus has this right. Diodorus then narrates the activities of Eumenes beginning (ch. 12) with his winter quarters. This is either winter 318/17 or 317/18 and what follows is Eumenes leaving camp in Babylonia and advancing to Susa, skirmishing with Seleukos on the way.

Following this, Diodorus, as you note (17.1), inserts the archon year of Demokleides (7/316-7/315) and here is where matters go awry. Reading on we find that Antigonos, having wintered in Mesopotamia (the same winter as 12.1) and enlarged his forces (15.6), sets out after Eumenes and is defeated at the Coprates River. This is self-evidently the same campaign which began at 12.1 as the action is at the height of summer. The question becomes whether the winter described at 12.1 is that of 318/17 or 317/16.

Already noted is the death of Philip III Arrhidaios, securely set as autumn 317. Diodorus and Trogus / Justin both note that Olympias’ reign was short and that she was besieged over winter. It is clear that Kassandros’ blitzkrieg and Polyperchon’s failure led to her parlous military state and confinement in Pydna. Elsewhere (Diod. 19.91.2) we are told that Seleukos had initially been satrap of Babylonia for four years. This from after Triparadeisos (Summer 320) until his expulsion by Antigonos. That expulsion must then be 316. All the period pointers Diodorus found in his source – Perdikkas died having commanded for three years (323-320); Philip III ruled for six years and four months (6/323-10/317) and Seleukos satrap for four years (320-316) – indicate that the winter of 12.1 is that of 318/17. This means that, for whatever reason, Diodorus noted the Asian activities of the first few months of 317 and then incorrectly inserted the archon of 316-17 in the summer of 317.

I don’t understand why it is you think that Kassandros cannot have sent Nikanor to the Hellespont until he had the Athenian fleet. Kassandros had Athens from day one:
Plut. Phoc. 31.1:
Antipater, a little before his death, had appointed Polyperchon general, and made Cassander a chiliarch. But Cassander, far from being satisfied with such an appointment, hastened to seize the supreme power, and immediately sent Nicanor to take the command of the garrison from Menyllus, and to secure Munychia before the news of his father's death got abroad.
Kassandros had scarpered to Asia in the early autumn of 319 and returned to Athens in the spring of 318:
Diod. 18.68.1:
Cassander, after receiving from Antigonus thirty-five warships and four thousand soldiers, sailed into the Piraeus. Welcomed by Nicanor, the garrison commander, he took over the Piraeus and the harbour booms, while Munychia was retained by Nicanor himself, who had enough soldiers of his own to man the fortress.
Kasaandros then attacked Aigina while Polyperchon moved into the Peloponnese. Eventually Plod sent a relieving force and, threatened, Kassandros took himself back to Athens (69.2) - indicating he was outnumbered in ships and / or men. There follows Plod’s disastrous siege of Megalopolis and his departure to see to more necessary matters. These were the relief of Arrhidaios (the satrap) and to block the Hellespont. To this end he sends Kleitos with the Macedonian fleet. Nikanor is sent to the Hellespont, Kassandros sending him “with his entire fleet” which, when added to Antigonos’ fleet, numbered 100. It seems plain that Kassandros has sent the “entire fleet” which Antigonos had given him – the 35 ships he likely had been operating with. He certainly hasn’t ordered out the main Athenian fleet one thinks.

The actions described above, commencing in the campaigning season after the death of Antipatros (autumn 319), have no problems fitting the campaigning year of 318. In fact, the campaign of Arrhidaios in Hellespontine Phryhia, beginning in late autumn 319 and carrying through winter 319/18, perfectly fits his desire to aid Euemens holed up in Nora. The defeat of Kleitos in the Hellespont, which brings an end to this campaign, also sits well in 318 for Antigonos then sets off after Eumenes who has made for Kilikia while matters are concluding in Hellespontine Phrygia.

I’m sure half the forum’s readers has dropped into a waking dream by now…

Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:33 pm
by agesilaos
I shall save my reply for a day or so then, lest the others become fully comatose; I will just supply some useful links for the moment

BCHP 3 is the Diadochi Chronicle and can be fond here, alongside much else of interest ... hi_02.html

Diodoros is online here ... html#ref47

And Polyainos and the Marmor Parium here

Just click to the appropriate year, these are essential sites and can be backed up with the original language at Perseus ... reco-Roman

Photius' in Greek can be found here ... otheca.pdf

Arrian 'Ta Met'Alexandrou' starts page 74 at 92.69[alpha] we are beyond this on this thread (TMA ends with Antipatros' return to Europe) but the next time my hard disk fries I can retrieve the site reference.

Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:16 pm
by Zebedee
I'm just reading along, and around as time permits. :D

Am a little curious as to the reasons for how the siege of Pydna was conducted. We have a wall constructed from coast to coast to block the land side. And then a blockade by sea. Just wondering really why 'winter storms' would impact on Kassandros deciding to sit and wait it out. Winter storms would seem more likely to prevent a sea blockade rather than to prevent pressing by land. Whilst we can suppose reasons for it away from Diodorus, not least force size - though that too really is making me curious, is there evidence here for elision from another source?

Was just reading round. Diodorus has Pydna besieged by 1000 Athenians but who were unable to take the city until another 2000 show up. The garrison of Amphipolis under Aristonous one could suppose is around 2000 too. Are the forces relatively miniscule at Pydna? In which case, why the famine amongst the soldiers?

Not really posting much because I'm afraid all I can offer are expressions of ignorance :lol:

Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:50 pm
by agesilaos
That's much the same for us all it is just that we have learned to put a braver face on it :shock: Seriously, I think the storms prevented an assault with siege towers et al, Kassandros could not afford to lose men in any other type of assault (this is only my opinion of course) come spring he decided that he could contain the town with a circumvallation and use the men thus freed to expand his control by sending out some columns; it would also help his own supply situation. Sea blockades were not really an option in the ancient world, due to the impossibility of standing out to sea in ships with no food and little water; one had either to sweep the enemy from the seas which is what the Marmor Parium implies Kassandros did (by dating the destruction of Kleitos to 316) or by taking a nearby port so that one could sally out to thwart any sea bourne relief, which the Athenians failed to effect at Pylos. Kassandros did not take any other ports, that we are told of.

Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:49 am
by Paralus
To resume then….

On the evidence I would consider the following as 'fixed' points:
  • Alexander’s death 11 June 323
    Arrhidaios’ accession June 323
    Perdikkas' death May/June 320
    Triparadeiosos summer 320
    Seleukos satrap of Babylonia autumn 320
    Eumenes in Nora spring 319-spring 318
    Death of Antipatros late summer 319
    Kassandros travels to Antigonos autumn 319
    Campaign in Hellespontine Phrygia winter 319/18
    Polyperchon moves on Aetolia; receives Athenian delegation spring 318
    Phokian’s death April/May 318; Kassandros returns May 318 and Polyperchon moves on Athens
    Kassandros attacks Salamis; Polyperchon in Peloponnese summer 318
    Polyperchon leaves Megalopolis sends Kleitos to Hellespont; Kassandros sends his (Antigonos') 35 ships late summer 318
    Kleitos defeated late summer early autumn 318
    Antigonos sets out after Eumenes autumn 318.
On the basis that Perdikkas lost his command after three years and BCHP 3, Perdikkas died in 320 and thus Seleukos' tenure as satrap of Babylonia began in autumn 320 after Triparadeiosos. As Diodorus' source notes (see above posts), he held this for four years. Philip Arrhidaios' rule ended after six years and four months - October/November 317 and Olympias was besieged in the following winter, dying in the subsequent spring - 316. That same winter saw Eumenes' death and so this was January 316. This corresponds to Seleukos being forced from his satrapy by Antigonos in late summer 316 and so Antigonos returned west to winter quarters in November 316.

The arguments against rely on Diodorus' archon years and the Parian Marble. The latter is infamous for its chronological inaccuracies and given that Diodorus can leave out two archon years in Book 18 one is hardly imbued with confidence. As I've indicated in earlier posts, Diodorus' insertion of archons in Book 19 is confused by his switching of theatres and his source's campaigning year method of narration resulting in an archon year being inserted erroneously (Demokleides 316/17). For events down to spring 316 this is neatly summed up by Alexander Meeus, to whom this owes much, in Diodorus and the Chronology of the Third Diadoch War (Phoenix 66, 2012, p 83):
The conclusions about Diodorus’ chronology reached so far can be summarized as follows:

(1)archonship of Demogenes (317/6) (2.1): European affairs of the autumn of 317 (11), Asian affairs of the spring of 317 (12–16)

(2)archonship of Demokleides (316/5) (17.1): European affairs from late autumn 317 until autumn 316 (35–36, 49–54), Asian affairs from summer 317 until spring 316 (17–34, 37–48)
There is, of course, more to come: winters gone south for the summer, a 15 month siege of Tyre in one chapter/year and fleets sailing the Aegean. And then there's Gaza. But before then we'll take a practical view of Kassandros' activities in the late winter/spring of 316.

Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:17 pm
by agesilaos
I will have a slightly different set of ‘fixed points’; but for the moment I want to concentrate on a question that has never even been considered as far as I can see. It is ‘When did Antigonos first build a fleet?’, this links to another question which is ‘why do I say that Kassandros needed to be in alliance with Athens in order to fight at the Chalcedonian Temple?’

Polyainos IV 6 viii would seem to settle the matter;
Antigonus fitted a fleet of a hundred and thirty ships, and placed Nicanor in command of them. Nicanor confronted the fleet of Polysperchon, which was commanded by Cleitus, in the Hellespont; but because of his inexperience, he engaged the enemy with the swell of the tide against him, and lost seventy ships. The enemy had won a decisive victory, by the time that Antigonus reached the fleet in the evening. Undaunted at the defeat he had received, he ordered the sixty ships that remained, to be ready to renew the action the next morning. On board each of them he posted some of the bravest and most resolute men of his own guards; and he commanded them to threaten death to all, who would not charge boldly against the enemy. Byzantium, which was then in alliance with him, was situated nearby; from there he summoned light-armed troops, and peltasts, and archers, a thousand of each. He posted them on the shore, in order to support the fleet, by annoying the enemy with javelins and arrows. This was all achieved in a single night. At day break a shower of javelins and arrows was poured upon the enemy. While they were just arising, and scarcely awake, they were seriously injured, before they realised where the attack was coming from. Some cut their cables, and others weighed their anchors; while nothing prevailed but noise and confusion. Antigonus at the same time ordered the sixty ships to bear down upon them. Under attack both from the sea, and from land, the conquerors were obliged to yield their victory to the conquered.
This seems an open and shut case and were it not that Diodoros states at XIX 58 i
After attending to these matters, Antigonus set out for Phoenicia, hastening to organize a naval force; for it so happened that his enemies then ruled the sea with many ships, but that he had, altogether, not even a few.

This is hardly congruent with a fleet of over 130 ships, Kleitos resources having been absorbed, or even the 100 or so, had he just made good his losses.

Polyainos would have us believe that Antigonos raised a fleet in Asia and that Nikanor went from Athens to join it, presumably with the thirty-five ships that Antigonos had lent to Kassandros.

This would be quite difficult to achieve while Kleitos was still lurking around Athens with his fleet, which must have outnumbered Nikanor’s 35 ships by at least 3:1. Nor does the narrative ring true; Diodoros has a clear sequence, XIX 72 ,
72 1 After this piece of good fortune the Megalopolitans were more confident, but Polyperchon repented of the siege; and as he himself could not wait there for a long time, he left a part of the army for the siege, while he himself went off about other more necessary business. 2 He sent Cleitus the admiral out with the whole fleet, ordering him to lie in wait in the region of the Hellespont and block the forces that were being brought across from Asia into Europe. Cleitus was also to pick up Arrhidaeus, who had fled with all his soldiers to the city of the Cianoi since he was an enemy of Antigonus. 3 After Cleitus had sailed to the Hellespont, had won the allegiance of the cities of the Propontis, and had received the army of Arrhidaeus, Nicanor, the commander of Munychia, reached that region, Cassander having sent him with his entire fleet. Nicanor had also taken over the ships of Antigonus so that he had in all more than a hundred. 4 A naval battle took place not far from Byzantium in which Cleitus was victorious, sinking seventeen ships of the enemy and capturing not less than forty together with their crews, but the rest escaped to the harbour of Chalcedon.
Polyperchon leaves a force to cover Megalopolis
He cannot stay because of ‘more pressing business’
Kleitos is sent to the Hellespont to join up with Arrhidaios and stop Antigonos crossing
He gains the alliance of the cities of the Propontis
Nikanor follows

Now, it is true that the Loeb seems to make Nikanor meet a separate Antigonid fleet, but the Greek
κατέπλευσεν εἰς τοὺς τόπους ἐκείνους Νικάνωρ ὁ τῆς Μουνυχίας φρούραρχος,ἐξαπεσταλμένος ὑπὸ Κασάνδρου μετὰ παντὸς τοῦ στόλου: προσελάβετο δὲ καὶ τὰς παρ᾽ Ἀντιγόνου ναῦς, ὥστε τὰς πάσας ἔχειν πλείους τῶν ἑκατόν.
need only say that he ‘took Antigonos’ warships as well’

προσελάβετο δὲ καὶ τὰς παρ᾽ Ἀντιγόνου ναῦς

This most naturally means the 35 that he had lent to Kassandros, so Kassandros’

παντὸς τοῦ στόλου

‘whole fleet’, would have to be something else and, given whence they are sailing, the obvious source is the Athenian fleet. This is not strange as Diodoros links the Athenian volte-face with Polyperchon’s failure at Megalopolis.
74 1 In Europe, as Polyperchon had come to be regarded with contempt because of his failure at the siege of Megalopolis, most of the Greek cities deserted the kings and went over to Cassander. When the Athenians were unable to get rid of the garrison by the aid of either Polyperchon or Olympias, one of those citizens who were accepted leaders risked the statement in the Assembly that it was for the advantage of the city to come to terms with Cassander. 2 At first a clamour was raised, some opposing and some supporting his proposal, but when they had considered more carefully what was the expedient course, it was unanimously determined to send an embassy to Cassander and to arrange affairs with him as best they could. 3 After several conferences peace was made on the following terms: the Athenians were to retain their city and territory, their revenues, their fleet, and everything else, and to be friends and allies of Cassander; Munychia was to remain temporarily under the control of Cassander until the war against the kings should be concluded; the government was to be in the hands of those possessing at least ten minae; and whatever single Athenian citizen Cassander should designate was to be overseer of the city. Demetrius of Phalerum was chosen, who, when he became overseer, ruled the city peacefully and with goodwill toward the citizens.
One ‘fixed date’ is 317 for the start of Demetrios of Phaleron’s Guardianship of Athens, this is tied to Poyperchon’s embarrassment at Megalopolis and the return of Nikanor’s victorious fleet, XVIII 75 I,
75 1 Afterwards Nicanor sailed into the Piraeus with his fleet ornamented with the beaks of the ships taken at his victory. At first Cassander regarded him with great approval because of his success, but later, when he saw that he was filled with arrogance and puffed up, and that he was, moreover, garrisoning Munychia with his own men, he decided that he was planning treachery and had him assassinated. He also made a campaign into Macedonia, where he found many of the inhabitants coming over to him. 2 The Greek cities, too, felt an impulse to join the alliance of Cassander; for Polyperchon seemed to lack both energy and wisdom in representing the kings and his allies, but Cassander, who treated all fairly and was active in carrying out his affairs, was winning many supporters of his leadership.
The sequence here is clear, Nikanor returned after Demetrios had been made epimeletes, despite Polyainos IV ix
9 # After the naval victory in the Hellespont, Antigonus ordered his fleet to cruise towards Phoenicia. The sailors were adorned with garlands, and the ships were decorated with the ornaments of the enemy's fleet. He ordered his captains to sail as near as they could to the harbours, and cities, that they passed; that so the victory might be broadcast throughout all Asia. The Phoenician ships, bound for Rhosus, a port of Cilicia, and charged with great sums of money from Eumenes, were under the conduct of Sosigenes. While he was standing on a steep slope, watching the tides, the crews of the Phoenician vessels saw the victorious fleet approaching, splendidly adorned. They seized the treasures that they carried, and climbed on board the vessels of Antigonus. Thereby Antigonus obtained both great treasures and new allies; and Sosigenes gave up hope of fighting by sea.
I do not see Nikanor cruising the Med for a year, bedecked in drooping wreaths towing waterlogged wrecks. The details in this story are problematic; Diodoros says that Antigonos moved on Eumenes in Phoenicia by land
73 1 As for Antigonus, by inflicting so disastrous a blow upon the enemy, he gained a great reputation for military genius. He now set out to gain command of the sea and to place his control of Asia beyond dispute. For this end he selected from his entire army twenty thousand lightly equipped infantry and four thousand cavalry and set out for Cilicia, hoping to destroy Eumenes before the latter should gather stronger forces. 2 After Eumenes had news of Antigonus' move, he thought to recover for the kings Phoenicia, which had been unjustly occupied by Ptolemy; but being forestalled by events, he moved from Phoenicia and marched with his army through Coelê Syria with the design of making contact with what are called the upper satrapies.
This is not problem-free either as the claim that Antigonos ‘now set out to gain command of the sea’ is not supported by his reported actions; he chases Eumenes onto the Iranian plateau and returns to find himself fleetless!

Since nothing indicates that Antigonos possessed a fleet (initially Kassandros asked PTOLEMY to block the Hellespont and only turned to Antigonos once he had shown his own hand and provoked the flight of Kleitos). If the Athenian fleet was used, as is indicated by Nikanor’s return to Athens after the alliance had been forged in 317, then this battle and the dependent activity cannot be placed in 318.

Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:17 pm
by Paralus
An ingenious reconstruction but a little too ingenious perhaps. There are several issues and it's likely best to deal with them in some logical and independent fashion.

The sequence (1) (this will be a thread through the lot I'm afraid):
Everything begins with the Old Rope's death in the early autumn of 319 - there is no debate on this. Following this Kassandros arranges his philoi throughout Macedonia and, when the time is right, bolts for Asia - late autumn or so - to seek the One Eyed's help (Diod.18.54.1-3). Polyperchon, near enough to the same time, announces the diagramma of Philip III 'freeing' the Greek poleis of their imposed oligarchies and garrisons - something that was to be done by the thirtieth day of Xanthicus (mid April - 18.56). The mid April is then April 318. It is at this time that Polyperchon is in Phokis with the Macedonian Royal army and his son, Alexander, is sent on to Athens with a besieging force (for Polyperchon wants the Piraeus). So Kassandros is in Asia over winter 319/18 and, in early 318, Polyperchon is marching on Phokis and, eventually, to Athens and Megalopolis.

Antigonos' ships:
Arrived in Asia, Kassandros asks for aid and Diodorus says he received it. Now, one might think that was that and Kassandros, having got his desire, returned to Greece. This only seems so from Diodorus' usual method in these things. The Sicilian simply deals with the entire proposition in the one chapter and thus it is anticipatory (another example being the fifteen month siege of Tyre which passes under the one chapter). Antigonos is, in fact, rather busy at this time. He has just sent an army to Hellespontine Phrygia to engage Arrhidaios and expelled Kleitos from his satrapy of Lydia, the latter escaping to Macedonia by ship. Antigonos then takes Ephesos and other cities (18.52). It will be remembered that Kleitos commanded the Macedonian fleet in the Lamian War and afterwards commanded Perdikkas' fleet in 320 though he defected to Antipatros for which he received Lydia. The Perdikkan ships did not go to Macedonia nor did they disappear. If, at this time, Antigonos possessed no ships, one is forced to ask just where did the One Eye find 35 to gift to Kassandros? The best answer is from those ships originally attached to the Perdikkan forces (some of which carried the 500 talents Antigonos nicked when they put into Ephesos). There will have been others and it is difficult to believe that Antigonos would send every ship he had off with Kassandros.

The sequence (2):
Diodorus is dealing with concurrent events and narrating them on the basis of the theatre and individual within that theatre that is his subject. He thus goes back and narrates each from the same moment. Thus Kassandros finds Antigonos late autumn/winter 319. Antigonos has sent envoys to Arrhidaios and then, achieving nothing, an army. About the same time, the One Eyed advances on Lydia and Kleitos flees to Polyperchon who is in Macedonia (18.52.6). If we stop here we can see that Polyperchon is yet to leave Macedonia and so it is very early spring (say, March) of the year following the Old Rope's death - 318. Confirmation of this is the note that Eumenes has been released from Nora after a year (spring 319 - spring 318; 18.53.5). It is clear that Diodorus is relating events for all is actors from late summer 319 until spring of 318 and this is exactly what he does for Kassandros at 18.54 who gets his ships and army from the One Eyed. Events for Polyperchon for same period then follow (18.55-57).

Demetrius of Phaleron:
The fixed pointer for Demetrius is not in question and is a fly in the ointment. Again, it is likely Diodorus' method here that has confused. Just as Diodorus has anticipated in his narrative for other events, so he does here for the appointment of Demetrius. Kassandros has come to terms with Athens and Diodorus sums up the lot in the one notice. Nikanor has sailed into Athens at the end of the campaigning season and Kassandros will have settled Athens over the winter.

The sequence (3):
Unarguably Diodorus has described the events of summer 319 to spring 318 for all his disparate actors. Kassandros gets his ships and army from Antigonos sometime in early 318. Polyperchon marched to Phokis by early April 318 Polyperchon sends his son to Athens with a detachment of the army where he negotiates with the Athenians and Nikanor (18.65.3-5). Democratic revolution occurs in Athens and embassies, one led by Phokion, are sent to Polyperchon who sends Phokion back to his death (April/early May 318) in the company of Kleitos who had returned to Macedonia early in 318 (above). At the very same time ("Polyperchon and the kings happened to be staying in Phocis, but when Polyperchon learned of Cassander's arrival in the Piraeus"; 18.68.2) Kassandros sailed into Athens from Asia with the One Eyed's 35 ships. Polyperchon then marches on Athens and, not having sufficient supplies, departs to Megalopolis which he will have reached in the summer.

All the events above run from the autumn of Antipatros' death to the spring of Eumenes' release from Nora and Phokion's death and the summer which followed. This can only be Autumn 319 to summer 318. If we are to argue that the battle in the Hellespont did not take place until summer 317 we have to accept that Kassandros departed Macedonia in late autumn 319 and did not return from Asia until spring 317. We must also accept that Polyperchon promulgated his diagramma in late 319 with an effective date of the following April, then did nothing for a year before marching into Phokis in April 317. Whereas one might almost accept that old Plod might have been that useless, it seems a stretch to see Kassandros lolling about in Antigonos' benevolent, cyclops gaze for a year and a half. Far more logical is that Kassandros returned in spring 318 as Diodorus has it and that, as a consequence, Nikanor was sent to the Hellespont late in the summer of that year.

That Antigonos is need of putting together a navy in 315 is no surprise. He has been in pursuit of Eumenes from late summer/autumn 318 and returned west only by November 316. Ships are prohibitively expensive and it is most unlikely that Antigonos financed a ready navy for the two years he was engaged with Eumenes on land. On his return he will have needed to have rebuild and near likely from almost scratch.

Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:21 am
by agesilaos
You should have seen versions 1 through 4; rich enough in digressions to keep Xenophon on the ward for a month! Inevitable without footnotes, though. I will try your chunked style.
The sequence (1) (this will be a thread through the lot I'm afraid):
Everything begins with the Old Rope's death in the early autumn of 319 - there is no debate on this. Following this Kassandros arranges his philoi throughout Macedonia and, when the time is right, bolts for Asia - late autumn or so - to seek the One Eyed's help (Diod.18.54.1-3). Polyperchon, near enough to the same time, announces the diagramma of Philip III 'freeing' the Greek poleis of their imposed oligarchies and garrisons - something that was to be done by the thirtieth day of Xanthicus (mid April - 18.56). The mid April is then April 318. It is at this time that Polyperchon is in Phokis with the Macedonian Royal army and his son, Alexander, is sent on to Athens with a besieging force (for Polyperchon wants the Piraeus). So Kassandros is in Asia over winter 319/18 and, in early 318, Polyperchon is marching on Phokis and, eventually, to Athens and Megalopolis.
The date of Antipatros’ death is debateable; we are told that he died soon after the arrival of Demades’ embassy, but the only indication we have for the date of that is an inscription (IG II2, I 383b) placing Demades still in Athens on the tenth day of the tenth Prytanny of Neaichmos’ archonship c.June 6.There is no evidence that Demades set off instantly for Macedonia, though reading some commentators one might not realise that (Geer in the Loeb , p145, n1, ‘Antipater’s death, accordingly, may be placed in late in that summer.’ For instance.) In fact the terminus ante quem is only supplied by another decree enfranchising two men on the recommendation of Polyperchon, in the seventh prytanny of Apollodoros (IG II2 387), 29 Feb-4 March. Boiy cites an article by Gulath-Schober making it the tenth prytanny (‘Between High and Low’, p110 n260.) which knocks things back to 14 May -17 June; if the transcription on PHI is right this cannot be, but unseen it would be foolish to pick one over the other. All the same it seems clear that Antipatros did not make it into 318, nothing says he did not die in winter 319, however.

Be that as it may it is the sequence of Kassandros’ plot that takes us into 318, regardless. The crucial thing is that he seeks the help of Ptolemy and seemingly gets a reply. It is no short round trip even if Ptolemy was in Phoenicia rather than Egypt, which is more likely – there were ceremonies for the New Year in November which would require the pharaoh to be present. Nor would Kassandros go to Antigonos until he had shown his hand against the kings which would not be until the campaigning season of 318 (he’tarried in Kelenai’, while Arrhidaios was fighting at Kyzikos). Which shunts things down a bit. It could well be that Kassandros learned of Antigonos’ plans at the same time as Polyperchon from Kleitos, and Arrhidaios from Kassandros as he passed through the satrapy (an unguarded word or attempt to recruit him, maybe; speculation naturally).

The circumstances of the publishing of the diagramma require Greek proedroi to already be gathered, Diodoros XVIII 55 iv
4 At once, therefore, they called together the envoys who were present from the cities, and after bidding them be of good cheer, they promised to re establish democratic governments in the cities. As soon as they had drafted the decree that had been adopted, they gave it to the envoys, in order that they might quickly return to their native cities and report to their assemblies the goodwill that the kings and the generals entertained for the Greeks
There was an annual meeting of the Amphyctionic council in Phokis in ‘spring’ which may have been in Xandikos/ Mounychion. Which would be a suitable situation for the promulgation of the decree; the Athenians were members and the special clauses concern cities within the amphyctiony Heraklea, Amphissa, Pharkadon, Triakka and Athens. The only non-member is Megalopolis whose importance in subsequent events may have injected it into the text of the diagramma. The parallel convention was probably in Hyperberetaios (September/October) when, even if Antipatros was dead, it is unlikely that Kassandros had laid his plans and absconded and also unlikely that Antigonos had made his open break with the kings.

Hard on the heels of the diagramma came the execution of Phokion which was 19 Mounychion according to Plutarch’s life which has to be 318 (in 319 Antipatros was definitely alive and 317 is too late for Polyperchon to arrive in Attika).

Sequence is important as is contingency:-

The diagramma was published because Kassandros had absconded to Antigonos

He went to Antigonos because he had rebelled

When Arrhidaiaos began to garrison the cities Antigonos was not openly rebelling, since he uses the arguments of loyalty to the central authority (Plod and the kings)

When Antipatros died there was time for Kassandros to send to Ptolemy et al, and receive replies, while Antigonos still seemed loyal.

Just on the ships of the Perdikkans, they went to Ptolemy who, unlike Antigonos is identified as a naval power, it is he whom Kassandros asks for a naval expedition to the Hellespont, XVIII 49
3 He also sent envoys in secret to Ptolemy, renewing their friendship and urging him to join the alliance and to send a fleet as soon as possible from Phoenicia to the Hellespont.
And that's only the first chunk and not even all of that :shock:

Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:33 pm
by Paralus
Again, very ingenious. Though I possibly should wait for the rest of the first chunk, there is an incorrect assumption in your argument which is rather crucial to it. Before that, though, one must bear in mind that while Diodorus narrates each of his actors' actions separately and concurrently, he also attempts to put them in a chronological order. So we have (at 18.50) a description of Antigonos' attempt to suborn Eumenes after he hears of Antipatros' death.This is late autumn / winter 319/18, the same winter that Arrhidaios realises what's afoot and takes precautions, attempts to relieve Eumenes(18.51-52) and Antigonos responds. But to the incorrect assumption:
Agesilaos wrote:There was an annual meeting of the Amphyctionic council in Phokis in ‘spring’ which may have been in Xandikos/ Mounychion. Which would be a suitable situation for the promulgation of the decree; the Athenians were members and the special clauses concern cities within the amphyctiony Heraklea, Amphissa, Pharkadon, Triakka and Athens. The only non-member is Megalopolis whose importance in subsequent events may have injected it into the text of the diagramma.
Nothing indicates that Polyperchon pronounced the diagramma at the Amphyctionic Council. Diodorus' evidence actually says otherwise. The Sicilian begins by noting that Polyperchon called together all the Macedonians of importance and all the commanders. This happens in Macedonia as Diodorus says (18.55.1). The Sicilian then goes on to note that "they called together the envoys who were present from the cities, and after bidding them be of good cheer, they promised to re‑establish democratic governments in the cities" (18.55.4). "They" are the self same philoi, commanders and Macedonians of note. Whatever we decide about the date of this meeting, it was not the Amphyctionic Council unless such was held in Macedonia or that Polyperchon had summoned his philoi, all the Macedonians of note and all the commanders to the Council meeting as well.

A far better fit for this conclave was in the wake of the death of Antipatros and Kassandros' scarpering to Asia. Realising that maters were to take a not terribly peaceful course Plod has summoned the representatives of the poleis to Macedonia to demonstrate his position as regent of empire. It is here that he has Philip III produce the diagramma. The notes of Antigonos' aid to Kassandros, et al, are repetitions of what he has already told his reader in earlier passages describing those actors' actions.

Re: Ear - Springtime for Arrian...and Diodoros

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:44 pm
by agesilaos
Your thrust; my riposte,
A far better fit for this conclave was in the wake of the death of Antipatros and Kassandros' scarpering to Asia.
The conclave was not in the wake of Antipatros' death, but solely as a result of Kassandros showing his hand and that is in turn dependent on evidence of Antigonos' rebellion. Had the proedroi been summoned from the Greek cities when you suggest they would have been representatives of the oligarchies set up by Antipatros - turkeys voting for Christmas, or shrimps for a barbie in your manor squire.

But hold, the same would be true of the Amphyctionic Council, except Polyperchon had already draw his plans against the oligarchs, and Macedon had control of the Council and possibly the councilors, there seems to have been an entourage of exiles, the Athenians were there en masse and I would suggest that Athens was the immediate target of the diagramma - no evidence other than the rapidity of the regime change there.

I think it will be easier to follow if we argue things in chunks like this and then move on, otherwise we will suffer from chronological sprawl; which is not to say the point should be resolved, just taken to the point of impasse. The evidence will admit more than one interpretation, though mine will be the most ingenious and best :lol:

I would add that we should not restrict things if they are relevant, however, eg if some evidence for 315 in a cuneiform text demonstrates that Diodoros has erred for 318 by some count back... you know what I mean, this is a tangled skein indeed.

I may not be able to reply tomorrow, nor indeed rise before noon, RWC is here :P Why is there no 'hung over' emoticon?