Excavations in Alexandria

This moderated forum is for discussion of Alexander the Great. Inappropriate posts will be deleted without warning. Examples of inappropriate posts are:
* The Greek/Macedonian debate
* Blatant requests for pre-written assignments by lazy students - we don't mind the subtle ones ;-)
* Foul or inappropriate language

Moderator: pothos moderators

Post Reply
gepd
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 245
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:06 pm

Excavations in Alexandria

Post by gepd »

Excavations in Alexandria by Limneos-Papakosta have been mentioned here before, but its now interesting that these continue to go on for over a decade since they started in the location of the Shallalat gardens. This is at the location slightly north of the central Canopic street (R1 street) and inside a ptolemaic wall section that survives there. It coincides with part of an extended area that is proposed to be the location of the Soma in Andrew Chugg's book. You can see, if you switch to satellite view, the main excavation site here: https://goo.gl/maps/zvnxCt2s5miD4pd7A , although the whole park (on the north of the Canopic street) has been scanned with electrical resistive tomography and many smaller trenches have been dug throughout.

What I find interesting is that the excavator has reach to the bedrock, so she has revealed the ptolemaic layers at that region - the original Alexandria. She has found the pavement of a large ptolemaic building in the main excavation area, and a hellenistic marble statue that she attributes to Alexander & tunnels (in part collapsed and some extending below modern buildings). The statue was discovered in ˜2010, and in the follow up year, one missing part of its hand (showing that it was holding a spear) was also found. You can see a 3d scan of the statue here:

https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/alexand ... 5f631e34b2

Now the excavator reports she found one more piece (from the shoulder), in 2020, plus several more pieces of marble statues.

She has also uncovered parts of the L2 street (the first north parallel to the Canopic road), and more recently, part of R1. Regarding L2, she actually dates in to the 4th century AD (or at least clearly in late Roman times) and, interestingly she has found not trace of street at the ptolemaic levels, below L2. Instead, there are indications that ptolematic buildings and constructions extend below the L2 street. So I guess this may change a bit the view of how or where the ptolemaic road system extended. It would be interesting to understand what the ptolemaic building she found was. Little has been published so far, I guess because it is difficult to make sense of two many findings, from many (destruction) layers and eras. Plus, I guess the excavation will continue until the whole park is searched.

There are various scattered sources of information about this excavation if you are interested:

HRIAC website, Shallalat reports (no images): https://hriac.com/projects/shallalat-re ... 1a03a-bbbb
Excavation summary up to 2019 (in Greek): https://www.themata-archaiologias.gr/wp ... 94-205.pdf
Preliminary excavation summary up to 2020: https://www.academia.edu/45070664/SHALL ... _2007_2020
National Geographic Documentary: https://www.natgeotv.com/me/the-lost-to ... -the-great
Alexias
Strategos (general)
Posts: 1082
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:16 am

Re: Excavations in Alexandria

Post by Alexias »

Many thanks for this, very interesting.
User avatar
chris_taylor
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:30 pm
Location: UK

Re: Excavations in Alexandria

Post by chris_taylor »

thank you for a brilliant summary.

does anyone here know the diameter of the cornelwood shaft of the lances / spears / xystons used in Alexander's army?

I went to see the statue last year, but I was somehow not convinced it is Alexander (he looks too young and I don't know of any other portrait where he has sideburns and an upturned nose tip). And I wasn't convinced that the object in his hand was a spear: the diameter was too large to close the thumb around it. that would significantly weaken control - give the xyston a whack near the end (where the lever forces are greatest), and it flies out of your hand.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m_k6p6 ... share_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18VrTqQ ... share_link
Alexias
Strategos (general)
Posts: 1082
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:16 am

Re: Excavations in Alexandria

Post by Alexias »

No idea about the diameter, but it looks too thick to be a spear. In most of these spear-holding statues, the spear is held in the upraised hand with the hand just above shoulder height. The hand is usually the right one. It looks in these photos as if the left arm is raised, begging the question, what is he holding in that hand.

I think a spear is 7-8 feet long, and they are usually shown upright. Looking at the angle of what he is holding in his right hand, am not sure that it is possible for an unsupported spear of that length in marble. So maybe he is actually holding a sword and that is the handle.

The sideburns look distinctly odd. I don't think there is any pubic hair shown here and I think there was a convention that pubic hair wasn't shown on an ephebe, so are the sideburns meant to show the beginnings of a beard, rather than a partially shaved face?
gepd
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 245
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:06 pm

Re: Excavations in Alexandria

Post by gepd »

I am also not convinced the statue shows Alexander. Another deviation is the nose shape - in most depictions I am aware of Alexander's nose is more "straight".

In any case: the publication of the statue (before the part of the hand was found) is here:https://www.academia.edu/44991229/LIMNE ... ion_Eidola

Also, in 2017 the excavator gave a presentation about her project in a conference at the museum of Acropolis. There is a recording of her talk here (in Greek): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-cblSb ... Institute

At minute 19:00 and for several minutes afterwards, she presents the discovery of the statue and her interpretation. She refers to the statue as an early version of the type of "Alexander Doryphoros (spear bearer)".

The later parts of her talk are also interesting where she describes the Ptolematic building, how they lifted some of the pavement blocks to find bedrock only 10-15 cm below, vertical wall segments of the building, the early hellenistic pottery near that wall that is consistent with the Ptolemaic building date.
User avatar
Paralus
Chiliarch
Posts: 2875
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:13 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Excavations in Alexandria

Post by Paralus »

That's definitely no spear. A xyston, of cornel wood (if we take Arrian at his word), would be far too heavy to wield at that diameter. All depictions have the shafts far thinner; hence their shattering. It is no sarissa either. Some photos of a sarrisa wielding guard and longche bearing symposium guards - phylakes / "doryphoroi" (Aghios Athanasios Tomb, late 4C).

I'd also agree with Alexias that this is most likely not an adult.


Sarissa2.jpg
Sarissa2.jpg (229.23 KiB) Viewed 4054 times
Aghios Athansios2.jpg
Aghios Athansios2.jpg (238.68 KiB) Viewed 4054 times
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

Academia.edu
User avatar
chris_taylor
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:30 pm
Location: UK

Re: Excavations in Alexandria

Post by chris_taylor »

Paralus wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:25 am That's definitely no spear. A xyston, of cornel wood (if we take Arrian at his word), would be far too heavy to wield at that diameter. All depictions have the shafts far thinner; hence their shattering. It is no sarissa either. Some photos of a sarrisa wielding guard and longche bearing symposium guards - phylakes / "doryphoroi" (Aghios Athanasios Tomb, late 4C).
looking at it from the POV of functional anatomy of the hand (difficult to convey in photos, much easier when standing in front of the statue), the key things to note are:

the fist is not fully closed - so it would not have been any kind of weapon designed to be wielded with one hand. Fist closure is a requirement for strength and control (just try and lift a suitcase without your thumb and index finger overlapping you'll know what I mean). the object is held at an angle, with the wrist slightly angled towards the floor. that means it was relatively light weight (try holding a full wine bottle like that :)). And the index finger is opposite the thumb, not below it, as it would be if the weight of the object above the grip point was significant (try it with a broomstick).

so: if the object rested on the ground behind, then the part that protuded above the hand wasn't heavy enough to be a real counterweight - something like a walking stick. if the object was held free, then it was probably a small, wide-necked flask designed to be poured by gripping its neck.
All men by nature desire understanding. Aristotle.
Alexias
Strategos (general)
Posts: 1082
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:16 am

Re: Excavations in Alexandria

Post by Alexias »

I've had another look at the 3D link that gped provided and I don't think the top of the object in his hand has been broken off. Nor does the base of it look as if it has been broken off as both ends appear smooth. There is an indentation in the base and a hole in the top, so if the hole was meant to take a piece of metal, it wouldn't have passed all the way through, nor have been very heavy. It is possible the hole was for a metal rod to support an extension to the object.

The lower arm appears to be a reconstruction, so there could have been something on the arm that this object was attached to eg a lyre perhaps? There is also a possibility that whatever he was holding was attached to the support at the right buttock.
sikander
Somatophylax
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2002 8:17 pm

Re: Excavations in Alexandria

Post by sikander »

Greetings,
Thank you for posting these!
Regards,
Sikander
User avatar
chris_taylor
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:30 pm
Location: UK

Re: Excavations in Alexandria

Post by chris_taylor »

Alexias wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:17 pm I've had another look at the 3D link that gped provided and I don't think the top of the object in his hand has been broken off. Nor does the base of it look as if it has been broken off as both ends appear smooth. There is an indentation in the base and a hole in the top, so if the hole was meant to take a piece of metal, it wouldn't have passed all the way through, nor have been very heavy. It is possible the hole was for a metal rod to support an extension to the object.

The lower arm appears to be a reconstruction, so there could have been something on the arm that this object was attached to eg a lyre perhaps? There is also a possibility that whatever he was holding was attached to the support at the right buttock.
YESS - you're spot on!! The metal rod didn't go through. So the object held was quite lightweight, with its centre of gravity in, or close to, the hand, with nothing protruding below the hand. When executed in a different material, the object was much heavier and required a support rod.

PS: I'm fairly sure reading somewhere that the arm was found later during the excavations, so I assumed it was original, or at least a cast taken from the original.
All men by nature desire understanding. Aristotle.
Alexias
Strategos (general)
Posts: 1082
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:16 am

Re: Excavations in Alexandria

Post by Alexias »

I know that doesn't look like the pommel of a sword, but I think the likeliest possibility is a bronze sword in his hand. It kind of depends upon what he was holding aloft in his left hand. All I can think of is the head of Medusa (although he is looking at it, eyes open), so unless this was part of a larger group with a horse or something, Perseus is all I can come up with.
gepd
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 245
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:06 pm

Re: Excavations in Alexandria

Post by gepd »

Some new findings of the Limneos-Papakosta excavations are shown on the Netflix docuseries about Alexander (maybe one of the few interesting points of these series). The boundaries of the ptolemaic building, which is at the corner of the R1 & L2 road intersections of Alexandria, is around 30-40 m across. Lots of red-blue wall fragments were found, some painted floor blocks and hellenistic oil lamps/offerings. There is also a walled tunnel at the floor level of the building, still under investigation.

Portions of L2 & R1 have been re-excavated (first time since Mahmoud El-Falaki in 1866. Preservation works are carried out on L2. The L2 road is above the level of the ptolemaic building, and no corresponding hellenistic road was found below it. Instead what was found beneath the road are fish bones, sea shells, coral reef fragments etc. These were actually dated and map to the time of the great earthquake & tsunami - not sure if similar evidence for the tsunami was found before (besides literal sources). See here: https://hriac.com/wp-content/uploads/20 ... alat2.pdf

It is believe that the reason the hellenistic building was destroeyed/abandoned was this tsunami, indicating that it was standing there since the ptolemaic period.
Post Reply