The Souvaltzi Discovery - Any Record Of The Genuine Translations

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yakovzutolmai
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The Souvaltzi Discovery - Any Record Of The Genuine Translations

Post by yakovzutolmai »

I have been searching for information about Roman Era Siwah and came across the Souvaltzi affair. I've exhausted what has previously been discussed on this board about this topic, and in fact that's what brought me here.

Her dubious claim that her temple/tomb was Alexander's was firmly debunked by scholars who reviewed inscriptions she had discovered and declared them to not translate into the text she was presenting in her claims. However, there is no discussion of what the genuine translations were. Indeed it seems that the site has been minimally interesting and minimally investigated since. All I have gleaned is that this was a site built closer to the Roman Era.

My interest is for a rather obscure reason, from my own investigations which I record for posterity's sake at early writings. If there's interest at this forum, I can briefly elaborate in another post, but I am experimenting with a hypothesis which deals with how some Cyrenian Jews may have created their own sect (among many competitors) of messianic Judaism. I am wondering if this particular Cyrenian sect became the core of the Philonic, Markan and Pauline Christianity. That it migrated to Alexandria.

The basic premise is that Josephus's account of Alexander's visit to Jerusalem is dubious, but seems to go in parallel with Alexander's visit to Siwah. Josephus is arguing that the Jewish High Priest via the Book of Daniel prophesies of Alexander's victory in Persia. This is borrowed from what did happen at Siwah. So, the other parallel which is unspoken is that Alexander as son of Zeus-Hammon (who becomes the universal deus of the Hellenic world), would transpose to be recognized as son of Yahweh. In other words, something only Cyrenian Jews would first care about, is some effort to Judaize the syncretic spirit of Cyrene, and to perceive Amun of Siwah as in fact Yahweh himself. Therefore, to these specific Jews, Alexander's Siwan conversation with Ammon becomes a conversation with Yahweh, where the aspirational Hellenic peace of Alexander is derived from the prophecies about the Jewish people in Daniel. The rest of the story involves the Alexandrian Hellenized Jews conspiring with the Flavian dynasty, and this concept of Alexander's legacy as the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy is transposed onto the Roman empire, and the Pax Romana becomes the literal messianic era of Daniel.

That will probably sound totally outlandish to some of you, but much of it has been discussed in certain circles for years. The novel piece, which I am exploring involves Siwa.

I'm wondering if there was a locus among the Cyrenian Jews, perhaps a single family, which sought to develop a messianic sect (independent of the others), and specifically hoped to someday build up Siwa as a new Jewish temple or something to that effect. However, the vision of the sect was to promote Alexander the Great as the Son of God, using the legend of Siwa localized within Jewish prophecy.

If we think of Pharoah's esoteric identity as the world pillar of Egypt, the link between the land and the stars, then of course we can easily see deified Alexander as a panhellenic Logos. If we then interpret Philo's theological efforts as an attempt to transform Jewish theology into something which could serve a panhellenic audience (so that Jews can integrate their prophetic legacy with Alexander's), then we find a comfortable synthesis of these various ideas.

The key is seeing the competitive pressure between Jewish sects, and the existence of a locus which might give a sect some competitive advantage. Siwa serves as a holy site, and a neglected one at that - even by Alexander's time. One can perceive the notion of adopting the site for some ambitious family's New Jerusalem. The real advantage of a sect like this would be something paradoxical to Judaism - the integration of gentile proselytes and kingdoms into Judaism. And this is precisely what we see. An incipient movement to bring Judaism to gentiles and loosen its strictures, along with a reactionary movement that rejects it.

So, I'd like to investigate whether there's any Jewish influence at Siwa, from the Cyrenian community. If, to speculate, Souvaltzi's tomb was of this Jewish family (because they were the last patrons to even care about the site), then names and stated relationships could be profoundly useful clues. Without the context of the narrative I've painted, the names might seem generic.

Alternatively, if proto-Pauline thinking among Jews is derived from interpreting Alexander as the Logos of Yahweh, then it would be interesting to see if this particular view of Alexander shows up anywhere. I have already discussed that a limited form of it appears in Josephus.

Sorry for the lengthy elaboration (I could certainly go on). Mainly, just asking about Souvaltzi.
Alexias
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Re: The Souvaltzi Discovery - Any Record Of The Genuine Translations

Post by Alexias »

Hi, thank you for your interesting post. As you may have realised there are not many contributing members left on the forum.

As for Souvaltzi's temple at Siwah, I have a vague recollection of seeing something about a translation, either on television or YouTube, but cannot remember its content. However, from memory, the inscription was in Greek, or possibly Roman, but not in Hebrew. She would have had a very difficult job convincing anyone it was Alexander's tomb if the the inscription was not in Greek.

I know next to nothing about Jewish history in Egypt, except in relation to Alexandria. Alexandrian theology contributed significantly to the development of Christianity (Arian heresy, Clement, Augustine), but whether there were other Jewish communities in Egypt, eg at Memphis or Thebes, I don't know. If there were, there is a greater probability of a Jewish community at Siwah, but unless you can unearth any evidence, it might hamper your theory. Why Jews from Cyrene?
yakovzutolmai
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Re: The Souvaltzi Discovery - Any Record Of The Genuine Translations

Post by yakovzutolmai »

Alexias wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:00 am Hi, thank you for your interesting post. As you may have realised there are not many contributing members left on the forum.

As for Souvaltzi's temple at Siwah, I have a vague recollection of seeing something about a translation, either on television or YouTube, but cannot remember its content. However, from memory, the inscription was in Greek, or possibly Roman, but not in Hebrew. She would have had a very difficult job convincing anyone it was Alexander's tomb if the the inscription was not in Greek.

I know next to nothing about Jewish history in Egypt, except in relation to Alexandria. Alexandrian theology contributed significantly to the development of Christianity (Arian heresy, Clement, Augustine), but whether there were other Jewish communities in Egypt, eg at Memphis or Thebes, I don't know. If there were, there is a greater probability of a Jewish community at Siwah, but unless you can unearth any evidence, it might hamper your theory. Why Jews from Cyrene?
In general, I would just be curious about the translation of the inscriptions. Although, I also have the other reason for being curious.

The Jews of Cyrene were one of the major communities of that region. The aristocratic members, as in Alexandria, would be thoroughly Hellenized. The concept is a universalist sect that targets gentiles and Jews alike.

I do know the Silphium trade was dominated by Jewish merchants, and was also connected to the Asclepius sect at Balagrae. So, it is not so much the Jewish community of Cyrene I'm thinking of, but a particular group of Hellenized Silphium merchants who might have seen some value from integrating local cults such as the Asclepius temple into their local Jewish practices. There was a lot of esoteric mystery teachings in Hellenized Jewish communities. I am wondering if Alexander at Siwah might have been integrated into one of them.

The Alexander-Asclepius interpretation of the Jewish esoteric high priest of heaven spirit is a reasonable basis for the Christ of Mark. And it is Mark which mentions Simon of Cyrene. We also have Lukuas of Cyrene, also called Andreas (the connection to the physician is also noted in history). Then the Lucas of Cyrene in Luke-Acts is considered a physician. Again, intersecting at the locus of Cyrene and the Asclepius sect with its connection to the silphium trade and the Jewish diaspora at the center of the spread of early Christianity.

Adding Alexander to Asclepius brings in the fulfillment of Jewish messianic prophecies (some of which, such as with Zechariah, are conscious of Alexander) to the character.

In any event, even a shred of evidence at Siwa connecting Alexander to Jewish aristocrats or even Asclepius would be profound. Or even connecting silphium merchants to the Siwa temple as minor patrons.

Thanks for the reply, and I hope my contribution is an interesting addition to the discussion of Alexander the Great.
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chris_taylor
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Re: The Souvaltzi Discovery - Any Record Of The Genuine Translations

Post by chris_taylor »

a list of references for the bizarre tale of Souvlatzki & the Tomb @ Siwa.

https://egypt.fitz.ms/newsdir/alex.html
https://www.bibalex.org/alexmed/Attachm ... e%2010.pdf

Olga Palagaia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olga_Palagia) was around at the time and her letter to the Chicago list implies that either those "three tablets" don't exist at all, so there is nothing to translate. Or they are identical with the "inscription" that was shown to the Greek delegation. said inscription is so clearly Roman and so run-of-the-mill even by archeological-discovery-standards that nobody thought it worth publishing a word by word translation.

chris.
All men by nature desire understanding. Aristotle.
Alexias
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Re: The Souvaltzi Discovery - Any Record Of The Genuine Translations

Post by Alexias »

Thanks very much for the links, Chris. Most interesting.
yakovzutolmai
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Re: The Souvaltzi Discovery - Any Record Of The Genuine Translations

Post by yakovzutolmai »

chris_taylor wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 6:51 am a list of references for the bizarre tale of Souvlatzki & the Tomb @ Siwa.

https://egypt.fitz.ms/newsdir/alex.html
https://www.bibalex.org/alexmed/Attachm ... e%2010.pdf

Olga Palagaia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olga_Palagia) was around at the time and her letter to the Chicago list implies that either those "three tablets" don't exist at all, so there is nothing to translate. Or they are identical with the "inscription" that was shown to the Greek delegation. said inscription is so clearly Roman and so run-of-the-mill even by archeological-discovery-standards that nobody thought it worth publishing a word by word translation.

chris.
Thanks. This adds information not found in other posts on this forum.

I am less interested in Souvaltzi's claims, and just looking for "run of the mill" information on Roman era Siwa, particularly if it might intersect with Alexander (not in the sense of a legendary lost tomb). It appears as if the inscription referenced lacks meaningful details of any sort. Thanks again.
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