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Alexias
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Post by Alexias »

We've had a couple of new members who have joined lately who don't look to be the usual spammers. So, in order to generate some activity in the forum, I'd like to invite them to ask a question about Alexander. It doesn't matter how noddy or silly the question might seem, I, or I'm sure someone else, will do our best to answer. So, please, ask away!
smitty
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Post by smitty »

Hi all,
I contributed some posts here near on two decades ago. Have been having some fun reacquainting myself with some of those posts. Have to say I sounded like a nasty person back then :shock: l hope I've mellowed over the years. :D I spent a few hours reading over some of the conversation we had back then,and apart from some poor attitude on my behalf, found them to be most informative and fun. They were good days.

Have been re-reading some of my ATG material of late and it inspired me to pop by and say hello.

hello.
cheers!
smitty
Alexias
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Post by Alexias »

Hi, welcome back!

I am afraid we don't have many active members left, so any contributions would be most welcome.
sikander
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Post by sikander »

Regards Smitty and welcome back!
Regards,
Sikander
Sweetmemory41
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Post by Sweetmemory41 »

Hello everyone!

What are two or three best sources on the first two years of ATG’s kingship? Thank you!
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Jeanne Reames
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Post by Jeanne Reames »

Sweetmemory, the first 2 years are, alas, too often overlooked in scholarship, the razing of Thebes aside. Aside from the primary sources, already listed, there are a couple articles about those years as well.

A rather interesting take comes from Tim Howe, "Cleopatra-Eurydike, Olympias, and a 'Weak' Alexander." A lot of Tim's stuff isn't available fully (for copyright reasons), but this is now an older article that he's made available. Despite the title, it's not a slam at Alexander, so much as a look at his position immediately following his father's murder, with a rather surprising suggestion about Philip's last wife--but a reasonable one that helps to better explain Olympias's apparent "viciousness."

In any case, it's one of the more recent articles that looks at Alexander's first year or two, including (of course) citation of original sources.
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Alexias
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Post by Alexias »

Interesting article, thanks, although some of the statements are a bit sweeping. Alexander's first couple of years as king were scarcely chaotic - challenging might be a better word. Alexander clearly knew what his priorities were and set about dealing with them methodically, and his position was scarcely weak as he had the support of Antipater, Parmenion and he appears to have had the loyalty of the army.

The idea that he might have considered marrying Cleopatra-Eurydike is interesting, although one out of three successors to assassinated kings marrying their predecessors' wives scarcely makes him unique. It seems unlikely though that he would have married her. If she were still alive in September 335 BC, a year or more after Philip's death, if he had felt he needed to marry her, he would surely have done so straight away. It is unlikely that he would have done so though as it would have given Attalus too much importance, and besides, Olympias probably wouldn't have let him. Maybe that is why she murdered Cleopatra - to stop anyone else marrying her.
sikander
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Post by sikander »

Greetings!
Glad to see some old and new posters here! Maybe 2022 can be a renewed, refreshed year!

Regard,
Sikander
Sweetmemory41
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Post by Sweetmemory41 »

Thank you, Alexias and Dr. Reames! I appreciate the links.

Although Tim Howe did not persuade me about the main arguments, his article was informative in highlighting Alexander’s first couple of years as king.
Demos
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Post by Demos »

Hey, I'm obviously new here, so I thought I'd ask something. Although Arrian and Plutarch are certainly two of our best sources on Alexander, do they manipulate Alexanders histories to make them more roman? For example, do they accentuate tellings of Alexanders leadership or bravery in order to model roman values? If so, what are some examples or how can we combat this from a reliability perspective.
Thanks -
Alexias
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Post by Alexias »

Hi, sorry it is only me answering this, but we are desperately short of members here.

I am not an expert on the sources, but the only example of 'romanisation' that came to mind was the notion that Philip divorced Olympias in order to marry Cleopatra/Eurydike. However neither Arrian nor Plutarch mention this, although Justin does. Philip had not divorced any of his previous wives each time he married so the only reason for a divorce (or separation) would be because Olympias and Alexander left Philip's court and went to Epirus after the wedding feast argument.

We should always be wary of believing 100% what the sources says because they had their own agendas and cultural perspective as you say, but this is true of every commentator since. Plutarch seems to believe in the rise and fall of Alexander as he lost the favour of the gods. Arrian sees Alexander as a divinely inspired hero and admits he has removed things he believes are slanders by those who disapprove of Alexander. Yet, for all we know there may have been some truth in these things.

This is probably not much help if you are looking for a specific answer.
hiphys
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Post by hiphys »

A.B. Bosworth (From Arrian to Alexander. Studies in Historical Interpretation, Oxford 1988, p. 119, n.110) stresses that Arrian had no liking for Callisthenes, because he lived in a totally different age (II A. D.) when imperial power, authority, and etiquette was well established and no one called it in question. This is the difference, I think, between the Alexander's age and the Roman imperial age. As for Plutarch, he was wholly a Greek (Boeotian), nevertheless he shared the same scale of values of Arrian : bravery, willpower, self-control. discipline, magnanimity, and religious care.
Alexias
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Post by Alexias »

Many thanks for your response, hiphys.
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Post by tei »

I don't know if "manipulation" would really be the right word, because it implies a modern understanding of what being a "historian" is. We assume historians today to be actively engaged in trying to counteract, or at least acknowledge, their own biases, and present a picture of events of the past that is as accurate within its own context as it possibly can be.

In addition to what's already been said, I think it's interesting that the "history" that Plutarch is writing is, in his own description, not particularly concerned with presenting events; he's concerned in analysing personalities, which is inherently a project that reveals the values of the author. Plutarch is very interested in the nature of Alexander's anger; he basically theorizes that the same "hot" constitution that made him energetic, ambitious and skilled also made him prone to addiction and fits of anger. The overall goal of his Lives was also to be able to compare great leaders with each other as a kind of didactic or moral tool; so although I don't think he actually wrote a "comparison" for Alexander (I think it's just paired passively with Julius Caesar? not sure) it still exists in the broader context of that goal.

Arrian is writing something more like what we consider "history," but he's doing it in the context of yet another comparison: specifically with Xenophon's Anabasis. The similarities are more than just the title; they're also structured similarly, down to Alexander's speeches to his troops after the mutiny at the Hyphasis being placed in the same chapter as the corresponding mutiny in Xenophon. For whatever definition of "mutiny" you think actually happened-- is it possible that Arrian was playing up the importance of the mutiny/speeches/sacrifices as a callback to Xenophon?

There are also places in Arrian's account where he inserts his own experience as a military commander in order to speculate about details he doesn't know-- I don't have the book in front of me but off the top of my head I can think of a section with a detailed description, not of Alexander's river crossings, but of how the Roman army crosses rivers, ending with something like "so I'm guessing it was probably something like that." Since much of Arrian's audience would have been familiar with a) Xenophon, and b) military service, there are probably elements of understanding "references" that are lost on us.
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