The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

This moderated forum is for discussion of Alexander the Great. Inappropriate posts will be deleted without warning. Examples of inappropriate posts are:
* The Greek/Macedonian debate
* Blatant requests for pre-written assignments by lazy students - we don't mind the subtle ones ;-)
* Foul or inappropriate language

Moderator: pothos moderators

Zebedee
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:29 am

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

Taphoi wrote:Regarding Zebedee’s comment: I have not suggested that the Amphipolis Tomb was a cult site for the Cabeiri. I have suggested that it was the tomb of an initiate of the Mysteries of Samothrace – specifically one who met her future husband there, by whom she bore a king who went on to conquer much of the known world.
Does one need to know beforehand that the person was an initiate of the mysteries there in order to get the allusion being made? Because that's circular again Andrew. It's the mysteries of Samothrace because Olympias, it's Olympias because mysteries of Samothrace, and round and round we go. Need to support it with evidence that other initiates also had these kind of allusions on their graves. And then explain the cremation in the grave as Olympias I guess.

edit: just a by the by, but the garland being 'seen' on this tomb appears to be worn upside down compared to the ones being used as examples from Samothrace, and other places too to be fair. That could be tricky to explain away as a direct 'allusion' but so it goes I guess.
User avatar
Taphoi
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 932
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:32 pm
Location: Bristol, England, UK
Contact:

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

Zebedee wrote:
Taphoi wrote:Regarding Zebedee’s comment: I have not suggested that the Amphipolis Tomb was a cult site for the Cabeiri. I have suggested that it was the tomb of an initiate of the Mysteries of Samothrace – specifically one who met her future husband there, by whom she bore a king who went on to conquer much of the known world.
Does one need to know beforehand that the person was an initiate of the mysteries there in order to get the allusion being made? Because that's circular again Andrew. It's the mysteries of Samothrace because Olympias, it's Olympias because mysteries of Samothrace, and round and round we go. Need to support it with evidence that other initiates also had these kind of allusions on their graves. And then explain the cremation in the grave as Olympias I guess.
When reconstructing an ancient vase from shattered and incomplete fragments, the way that you know that you are right is that the scene that you have reconstructed is self consistent. That is why it is part of the evidence here that a Samothracian initiate is a strong candidate for the owner of the Amphipolis Tomb. But no single fragment of the vase is going to confirm the reconstruction in isolation. That is why I am showing that there are multiple closely interlinked reasons why the frieze is depicting the bull sacrifice from the Mysteries of Samothrace.

It is not really valid for people to demand that every piece of an ancient vase must be recovered or that the reconstructed scene upon it must be repeated on another ancient vase before they will believe in the accuracy of the reconstruction. The fact that so many pieces have been fitted together to form a valid scene is accepted for vase reconstructions. Of course, if the reconstruction threw up any inconsistency, then that would be valid grounds for doubt.

Best wishes,

Andrew
Zebedee
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:29 am

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

Taphoi wrote:
When reconstructing an ancient vase from shattered and incomplete fragments, the way that you know that you are right is that the scene that you have reconstructed is self consistent. That is why it is part of the evidence here that a Samothracian initiate is a strong candidate for the owner of the Amphipolis Tomb. But no single fragment of the vase is going to confirm the reconstruction in isolation. That is why I am showing that there are multiple closely interlinked reasons why the frieze is depicting the bull sacrifice from the Mysteries of Samothrace.

It is not really valid for people to demand that every piece of an ancient vase must be recovered or that the reconstructed scene upon it must be repeated on another ancient vase before they will believe in the accuracy of the reconstruction. The fact that so many pieces have been fitted together to form a valid scene is accepted for vase reconstructions. Of course, if the reconstruction threw up any inconsistency, then that would be valid grounds for doubt.

Best wishes,

Andrew
Sure. We look at this scene in this tomb and ask for it to be internally consistent. What we cannot do with either vase or tomb is then attribute meaning to it beyond that supported by the evidence - which when placing it in a particular context or time requires external supporting evidence. Do you appreciate the difference between the two things?
gepd
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 245
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:06 pm

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by gepd »

A side note about he bull on the frieze is that that this frieze component was the one above the door entering the burial chamber, the bull was in the center above the door, so one may consider that the bull represent (one of?) the heroized persons worshipped there. In various discussions I have read about the reference to the story about the Delphi oracle:
In 336 BC, King Philip, chosen as leader by the Greeks, began a war against the Persians and sent Attalus and Parmenio into Asia; he gave them part of his army and told them to free the Greek cities. He was anxious to start the war with the gods’ blessing, so he asked the Pythian priestess if he would defeat the king of the Persians. She gave him the following reply: “The bull is garlanded; it has come to an end; there is the one who will make the sacrifice.”
from here: http://www.johndclare.net/AncientHistor ... rces2.html

So, is there a chance the bull corresponds to Philip - without meaning that he was necessarily buried there, just that he was worshipped? I don't have an opinion on that, just curious. Only noting that even if the supposed HΦ monograms in the nine-leaf rosettes in the chambers are read correctly, HΦ could even correspond to Heroon of Philip (apart from Hephaestion or Heroon of Phylis, for the later of which we have literary sources it existed in Amphipolis). Assuming that this thing was built for Philip would at least solve one problem for the chronology, ie. this could have started well before Alexander died, after money from Asia expedition started flowing in Macedonia.
User avatar
Taphoi
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 932
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:32 pm
Location: Bristol, England, UK
Contact:

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

gepd wrote:A side note about he bull on the frieze is that that this frieze component was the one above the door entering the burial chamber, the bull was in the center above the door, so one may consider that the bull represent (one of?) the heroized persons worshipped there. In various discussions I have read about the reference to the story about the Delphi oracle:
In 336 BC, King Philip, chosen as leader by the Greeks, began a war against the Persians and sent Attalus and Parmenio into Asia; he gave them part of his army and told them to free the Greek cities. He was anxious to start the war with the gods’ blessing, so he asked the Pythian priestess if he would defeat the king of the Persians. She gave him the following reply: “The bull is garlanded; it has come to an end; there is the one who will make the sacrifice.”
from here: http://www.johndclare.net/AncientHistor ... rces2.html

So, is there a chance the bull corresponds to Philip - without meaning that he was necessarily buried there, just that he was worshipped? I don't have an opinion on that, just curious. Only noting that even if the supposed HΦ monograms in the nine-leaf rosettes in the chambers are read correctly, HΦ could even correspond to Heroon of Philip (apart from Hephaestion or Heroon of Phylis, for the later of which we have literary sources it existed in Amphipolis). Assuming that this thing was built for Philip would at least solve one problem for the chronology, ie. this could have started well before Alexander died, after money from Asia expedition started flowing in Macedonia.
It is hardly likely that somebody built a Heroon to Philip with a reminder of the terrible oracle of his assassination as a central feature of its decoration. It was not exactly polite to depict Philip as a sacrificial Bull! Anyway, it is not a Heroon but a tomb, since it was built over actual graves. It is also anachronistic and in the wrong place for a monument to Philip when his tomb is at Aegae. We now know that the only reason that the archaeologists went big on the Heroon concept was that they were privately ruminating over the Hephaistion inscriptions, which I have shown actually demonstrate that the Amphipolis Tomb was a monument that re-used stones dressed for an abandoned monument to Hephaistion.

Best wishes,

Andrew
Zebedee
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:29 am

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

A grave and a peribolos surrounding it tends to point towards a heroon. Don't think Philip is plausible during his lifetime either. Founder cult would likely be within the city walls, and, as Andrew points out, this seems to be built around and upon a grave.
agesilaos
Strategos (general)
Posts: 2180
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 3:16 pm
Location: LONDON

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by agesilaos »

Other forum members can draw their own conclusions from your steadfast refusal to understand the initial graph you posted and they may also judge for themselves your response to the last one being out of date; that’s right folks that’s the non-response just an assertion that it proves he is right. :lol: LOL! But there’s more, Kastas is apparently in the same climatic band as Giza! I do hope you do not opt for greengrocery as a back up career, trying to pass apples off as oranges is illegal, you know.

The Neorion at Samothrace was built by Antigonos Gonatas to celebrate his victory at Kos, it would seem, the third century was an era of competitive building there between the Ptolemies and the Antigonids commencing with the Arseneion (no earlier than 288 and probably post 280 BC) if the frieze is connected with features only introduced to Samothrace in the 3rd century then the frieze cannot antedate them. Not good news for a scenario based on a petulant destruction and sealing by Kassandros in 310BC. :roll:
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
Zebedee
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:29 am

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

gepd wrote: Regarding centaurs, a simple google search gives immediately this result which you may have seen:

Image

on the center is supposed to be Venus. This was found in Tunisia, dates to the 3rd or 4th century AD. This is an unusual image, nit sure where it is derived from, but its the closest parallel to the supposed Kastas image on the frieze. Maybe if one knows where analysis of thr Tunisia mosaic has been published, we can look up if the authors mention any similar artworks.
Had a flick through a few books and dug on JSTOR, but as far as I can tell, it's considered unique as a portrayal. The closest otherwise are some depictions (on silver handles) of Venus being pulled along in a shell by two centaurs.
User avatar
Taphoi
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 932
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:32 pm
Location: Bristol, England, UK
Contact:

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

agesilaos wrote:The Neorion at Samothrace was built by Antigonos Gonatas to celebrate his victory at Kos, it would seem, the third century was an era of competitive building there between the Ptolemies and the Antigonids commencing with the Arseneion (no earlier than 288 and probably post 280 BC) if the frieze is connected with features only introduced to Samothrace in the 3rd century then the frieze cannot antedate them. Not good news for a scenario based on a petulant destruction and sealing by Kassandros in 310BC. :roll:
It appears to be disputed whether Demetrios Poliorketes or Antigonos Gonatos built the ship monument on Samothrace. As far as I can tell there is no definite evidence and the archaeology only dates it vaguely to the first half of the 3rd century BC. Speculation has focussed on the naval victory of Demetrios at Salamis in 306BC or that of Antigonus at Kos in the late 250s BC. The Nike in the Louvre is too late for either, if it is indeed 200BC.

The reconciliation is easy: there was an earlier Nike on a ship's prow at Samothrace - the one depicted on the tetradrachms of Demetrios Poliorketes minted in 300-295BC blowing a trumpet and holding a naval standard. That would put that original Nike back in the time period of the last quarter of the 4th century BC. So I see no problem.

Best wishes,

Andrew
agesilaos
Strategos (general)
Posts: 2180
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 3:16 pm
Location: LONDON

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by agesilaos »

I dare say no one would ever have any problems if you could simply invent corroborating evidence :lol: :lol: :lol: Samothrace was probably not under Antigonid rule until Gonatas, prior to that it was part of Lysimachos' satrapy and he hated Demetrios. Whilst some works of art are shown on coins, the cult statue of Baal on Alexander's tetradrachms, many are simply allegorical.

We know for certainn that the Nike of Samothrace did not hold a trumpet as her hands have been found and are displayed next to her in the Louvre, this is the right one
nike rt.JPG
nike rt.JPG (67.2 KiB) Viewed 7206 times
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
User avatar
Taphoi
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 932
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:32 pm
Location: Bristol, England, UK
Contact:

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

agesilaos wrote:Samothrace was probably not under Antigonid rule until Gonatas, prior to that it was part of Lysimachos' satrapy and he hated Demetrios. Whilst some works of art are shown on coins, the cult statue of Baal on Alexander's tetradrachms, many are simply allegorical.

We know for certainn that the Nike of Samothrace did not hold a trumpet as her hands have been found and are displayed next to her in the Louvre, this is the right one
I think you've lost the plot. Firstly, I already mentioned the hand of the Louvre Nike and that she did not hold a trumpet in a post above. Secondly, the Nike on a prow blowing a trumpet and holding a naval standard on the coins of Demetrios from 300-295BC is exactly the same Nike as we have now found in the Amphipolis Tomb frieze. So Demetrios did not invent it for his coins. It was a pre-existing statue before 300BC, when he adopted it. The Nike on a prow from 200BC found in the Sanctuary of the Great Gods on Samothrace shows us exactly where the Nike on a prow blowing a trumpet will have been: in the Sanctuary of the Great Gods on Samothrace, of course, where Nike was an associate of the Great Gods and where they were all associated with the Sanctuary's ship cult. Added to that, the new frieze shows that this statue stood where bull sacrifices took place with initiates wearing crimson belts during nocturnal ceremonies lit by huge braziers - all of which also fits what we know of the Mysteries of Samothrace. This in turn suggests that the ship monument was created by Demetrios Poliorketes to commemorate his victory at Salamis, because he put this cult statue onto his coins at roughly the same time to symbolise his famous victory. It is not important who ruled Samothrace at the time (although I think we do not know who controlled this island at each point in time). Sanctuary enclosures were subject to a sacred peace. There are monuments funded by all sorts of people at Delphi and Olympia. Furthermore, you are contradicting yourself, since you said above that the rival dynasties of the Ptolemies and the Antigonids competed in building temples in the Sanctuary on Samothrace.

Best wishes,

Andrew
Zebedee
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:29 am

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

So far the 'evidence' for Samothrace are shared, generic elements which can be found across the Greek speaking world. Unless one wishes to claim that every time a bull is sacrificed next to a tripod it's a reference to the mysteries there? And that's assuming it is a bull being sacrificed - the 'garland' claimed to be there is being worn like a menat necklace rather than a garland but then we're already so deep into the world of interpretation solely with reference to prior assumptions that it's almost a footnote.

The closest to a unique point is the quote about red belts. The problem there being that it requires Lefantzis to have confused dancers for human torsos attached to horse bodies. Given what is very, very clearly visible there, one suspects that Lefantzis is correct or one would have to explain just how 'damage' has given both dancers a crotchless kilt directly below their red 'belt'. How unfortunate it appears in the same place for both. But in precisely the right place to fit in with perfectly typical portrayals of how centaurs' torsos merge into horses' bodies.

What sort of dating has been kicked around for this in any case? We're surely looking at a later construction/refurbishment of the tomb chamber for these?

Gepd made an interesting point on the location of the 'bull' portion too. Do you have any more on the placement Gepd?
User avatar
amyntoros
Somatophylax
Posts: 2188
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2003 2:51 pm
Location: New York City

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by amyntoros »

Zebedee wrote:
The closest to a unique point is the quote about red belts. The problem there being that it requires Lefantzis to have confused dancers for human torsos attached to horse bodies.


And ... the figures are naked above the waist, the one on the right being definitely female, therefore the painting cannot be a portrait of respectable women dancing, guiding a bull (or whatever) at Samothrace. No female other than a slave or a prostitute would have had their breasts exposed in such a manner. Not at Samothrace, nor elsewhere. Not even the bacchantes, who, if their garments should have "slipped" during a frenzied dance, would have been in the company of women only. Now a female centaur, or a goddess or nymph, etc., that's another matter.

Have addressed this PM to you Zebedee because of the quote above, but I know you are aware of all this already. :)

Best Regards,
Amyntoros

Pothos Lunch Room Monitor
Zebedee
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:29 am

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

I have to confess I'm assuming both are male unless otherwise most certainly proven to the contrary!

Female centaur would be amazing enough. Is there a surviving portrayal of a female centaur from the Hellenistic era? Roman, a couple are known sure. That Greek portrayals existed, yeah. But I can't think of an example and a few hours trying to find an exemplar from even a couple of hundred years either side turned up a blank.
gepd
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 245
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:06 pm

Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by gepd »

Before Lefantzis showed any of his drawing, I was undecided on whether the figures on each side of the bulls where centaurs or dancers. This is one statuete found in the Hellenistic cemetery of Amphipolis, which could resemble what we see on the frieze, if not a centaur.

Image
Gepd made an interesting point on the location of the 'bull' portion too. Do you have any more on the placement Gepd?
Not much, apart that this was the "north" frieze, bull scene centered above the door. The east frieze contained the features with the supposed "towers"
Post Reply