The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

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gepd
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by gepd »

Not really sure what I see in that composition, except for the kopis, maybe a helmet and in other parts a soldier on a horse. The rest is two confusing, on the right of the "tower" I even think I see this:

Image

Here is the rest:

Image

I believe most of what is drawn for that part of the frieze, whether correct or not, is mispresented. Thick lines, too many colors, no image of the originals with different filters. Again, that is a drawing of Lefantzis, maybe he is taking over too many tasks beyond his architectural related ones.

I would say the best preserved part of the frieze is this:

Image

Features are more clear there, centaurs, delphic tripods, winged creatures, but maybe most importantly the Apis bull in the center. I assume it took some time for the Apis bull cult to be integrated from the Ptolemaic kingdom to Macedonia, do we know how much? Was this cult "transported" together with Arsinoe or one of Ptolemy I sons? I read somewhere that the Apis bull cult in Thesalloniki started in the early 3rd century BC, but cant find the reference again. If one knows, that may give us the earliest possible date that the frieze was added. In that Greek article http://www.archaiologia.gr/wp-content/u ... /39-91.pdf it is stated that there is evidence for the cult in Greece already in 250 BC, but that likely started even earlier. They repeat again early 3rd century BC, not being more specific. The most important Greek Serapeums were constructed at Delos after 220 BC. Delos was a place with lots of activity by the Antigonids (Stoa o Gonatas etc.).
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by system1988 »

Some members of pothos know the volume "The macedonian tombs of Finikas and Aghios Athanassios 2005': In this volume there is not the detailed presentation of the weapons of the dead warrior . For the full presentation of the the weapons you may look Academia.Μ. Τσιμπίδου-Αυλωνίτη .Νάματα. Αγιος Αθανάσιος Μακεδονικός τάφος ΙΙΙ .Ο οπλισμός του ευγενούς νεκρού( The armour of the noble dead) Thessaloniki 2011. The are photos of the corselet etc
I cant post it, may Gepd can help in this

PS Height of the dead person, 1,80 +
Last edited by system1988 on Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

@ gepd.

Certainly by the time of Demetrius Poliorcetes there were Egyptian influenced cults within Macedonia. Isis and Serapis are known from Amphipolis (albeit later again still), although the dating of a grave for a priestess of Isis is much debated and could be early 3rd century BC. The Antigonids seemed to like the Isis/Serapis/Harpocrates cult group too.

Some links I gave a long time back now:

On Ruler Cults in Macedonia (English): https://www.academia.edu/3403174/The_Ru ... _Macedonia (edit: footnote 88 deals with the stele of a priestess of Isis at Amphipolis initially dated to late 4th century but now dated a little later to early 3rd).

And on the Isis Cult at Amphipolis from the 3rd century BC onwards (French): https://www.academia.edu/673656/Les_cul ... _apr._J.-C._
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by agesilaos »

There were more bulls than Apis, Poseidon was connected hence Demetrios' bull's horns (at the time of the coinage he only held the islands and called himself the 'king of the sea'. Amphipolis had its own bull cult of Artemis tauropolos, which we find on early 2nd century coins once it had become an independent city again and on the bronze under the last Antigonids.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

Subject to the disc between the bull's horns being there, wouldn't that rule out most of the Greek portrayals? It's something I'm sure was kicked about at the time the initial representations were done. But to add to the list, there are known votives to Heracles from Amphipolis which also link him to the Serapis/Isis/Anubis (from memory for the third) trinity. Amphipolis seems like a very strange place for things mixing.

The decorations here are not original to the tomb's initial construction though are they? This is a later phase of construction so their direct relevance to the occupant of the grave may be questionable. Of course that's assuming there are multiple phases like that or we'd not have a late fourth century tomb after all...
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

The reconstructions of the murals appear to be fanciful and to pay insufficient attention to precedents in Greek art. For example, we have these weird combinations of sphinxes with braziers and bulls, when there are very clear and familiar scenes on red figure vases, which provide excellent precedents. As you can see, they are not sphinxes, but Nikes. Whoever came up with these "reconstructions" has allowed their imagination to run riot, when they should have been looking to match precedents in Greek art. My advice would be to look at the photos rather than the "reconstructions" and to match Greek art precedents to the photos and not to the "reconstructions".
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by amyntoros »

Now you've got me totally confused because I don't know who is saying what. The "reconstructed" images on the right are definitely Nikes - who is it that says they are sphinxes? I can't view the video of the freeze for some reason, maybe because I don't do Facebook. As for the figures on either side of the bull, we have previously been told they are centaurs, not sphinxes. Plus I have doubts whether the figures + bull should be compared to a scene of a sacrifice given that the bull is represented with head/horns held high and proud rather than pointing downwards and shaking, a stance which affirms its consent to be sacrificed. The female on the left on the vase is pouring something onto the head of the bull. When the bull shakes its head to remove the grain it is presumed to be saying "yes" to being sacrificed.

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

Sorry you can't see the video Amyntoros. Would suspect it will need a facebook account to view.

---

Some more vase art as exemplars, have a look at Heracles and Nike driving a chariot :D

Image

(Louvre, dated to c.410 - 400 BC)

Or Dionysus driving his.

Image

(Louvre, dated to c.400 - 390 BC)

Reason I'm looking at those are the curious 'gold' harness-like pieces on the centaurs and the bull. Just a little curious thing amidst the immense curiousness of everything.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by onar »

just an imaginary representation of mine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3imJjHOQPis
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by gepd »

What Andrew may mean by "reconstruction" is (I only assume) interpretation. There is no interpretation yet of what the whole frieze represents, but only some brainstorming about what individual features may be. The idea that sphinxes appear on the frieze has been at least stated once by K. Peristeri, and she refers to the winged feature on the left of the Apis bull, that appears to be standing on a small column. Not sure if that interpretation was repeated elsewhere, after the presentations at Thesalloniki. She refer's to all the rest as "winged creatures". I dont think much of this should be taken seriously unless there is an explanation behind any interpretation given.

They believe they have identified Delphic tripods (which they say supports the idea that this was operating into a cult place at least after some point) and they also refer to all kinds of isolated identifications which I dont think help in any way to reach to any conclusions for now. Some isolated features are better seen (e.g. bull, centaurs, tripods, man on horse etc.) others not so well,e.g. they claim they see a lion's helmet next to the man on the horse (??).

Reconstruction was done by imaging with filters and other techniques, but they should publish these raw data at some point, hopefully. Even if Lefantzis reconstructed what exactly the images show, maybe there are people with better drawing capabilities. A better drawing can also help... Not all parts of the frieze have been processed. Some parts are much more heavily eroded than other and it is still unknown what they show. The team still waits for support from the ministry for that purpose...
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by gepd »

system1988 wrote:Some members of pothos know the volume "The macedonian tombs of Fiikas and Aghios Athanassios 2005': In this volume there is not the detailed presentation of the weapons of the dead warrior . For the full presentation of the the weapons you may look Academia.Μ. Τσιμπίδου-Αυλωνίτη .Νάματα. Αγιος Αθανάσιος Μακεδονικός τάφος ΙΙΙ .Ο οπλισμός του ευγενούς νεκρού( The armour of the noble dead) Thessaloniki 2011. The are photos of the corselet etc
I cant post it, may Gepd can help in this

PS Height of the dead person, 1,80 +
https://www.academia.edu/4632927/%CE%9C ... oble_dead_

You can download it as pdf if you have an account in Academia.edu
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

If those are helmets and a sword, then it would make sense for a shield or cuirass to be the item in the centre. But I don't see that in this picture? The 'tower' is too narrow in relation to the other pieces to be a cuirass, and too out of proportion. We're reliant on the neon depictions which isn't great, to put it mildly, but there does seem to be a foreground and a background to whatever is being depicted here. Am I misunderstanding system's suggestion? Apologies if so.

Could I just clarify something on the Greek text in that article. It was a hoplite shield found? In the grave of what is believed to be a cavalryman?
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by system1988 »

For Gepd
Thanks Gepd.Idare say thank you on behalf of those interested in the Macedonian weaponry of the 4th bC, given that these are real weapons and not painted.All were preserved as long as needed and for this reason were not included in the original publication of 2005.The article is in greek ,and i am afraid the languagge is too specialised to translate in a frivolous way. It contains precise information, description, dimensions,debumked the idea that the horsemen had no shield ,much information about linothorax ( 8 years ago a member of pothos was asking information about linothorax but i dont remember his name)

Pauline
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by agesilaos »

Whilst the abstract says 'hoplite shield' this seems like an overly exact translation of the Greek 'aspis', which is just a shield, see the caption to figure 2 where we find 'makedonikes aspides' - Macedonian shields - lacking a rim they are not 'hoplite shields' but for use with the sarissa (a rim prevents the left hand gripping the shaft). Greaves (knemides) are also infantry equipment, but this does not preclude mounted service Macedonian nobles could afford to equip for all eventualities. The shield itself is missing but its existence has been deduced from some remains going on the abstract, there is no separate section on it sadly.

I half agree with Andrew that the place to start is the original photos, but they are not fully available, the first comparanda ought too be Macedonian funerary iconography, however not the whole corpus of Greek art. The 'catch-all methodology' is a flawed basis and can be demonstrated by Corso's ridiculous argument about the form of the tree on the recently announced relief, which he compares positively to a Roman copy of a lost painting rendered in mosaic 1st C AD, a late Fourth century tree in a painted hunt scene and negatively with an encaustic painting of a garden also from the first century AD (Alexander Mosaic, Pompeii; Tomb II facade, Verghina; Villa of Livia, Rome) all lack snakes, so serve a different purpose, none are reliefs so are not comparable in technique, and two are Roman and not funerary!

Once elements seen in other tombs are identified one might consider decorative elements on public buildings and only finally consider features of Greek art generally. Not ignoring coins of course.

This type (her from a Roman issue of Amphipolis, as a clearer picture than the Greek ones on the web see Wildwinds.com for other examples.
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The arms raised with a veil is typical and resembles that of the figure to the right of the bull, once a dancer now a second centaur; I see no sun disc on the original. A centaur would be appropriate if 'Tauropolos' is derived from Tauris in the Krimea, as symbolising the barbaric milieu, such a meaning is not clear, however and the term remains obscure.

Zeb, you have to take more than just the tower in to form the cuirass, outlined in red above. I assume that the area is damaged and that the tower etc are projections upon the evidence; a stand of arms would be normal decoration but without seeing the enhanced images I only suggest it as possible. The so-called lion helmet is an inference from their desire for an Alexander link and can be filed under the bulging file of 'Wishful thinking' :lol:

Pauline, could you say where the 'debunking' is, i.e. the page, I might get through a section but the whole is a bit too much work, especially without a copious amount of 'Naoussa' for inspiration :wink:
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by system1988 »

Page 362,second column,above fig.12,referance 71 and 72

Extremely interesting article. Need to be translated by a professional translator.Pay if necessary.But must be done.

Pauline
Last edited by system1988 on Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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