Alexander's languages

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catharine
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Alexander's languages

Post by catharine »

Hello, I'm new to this forum. I would like to find out about the language(s) spoken by Alexander. I guess this has probably been covered somewhere on this forum but am not sure how best to find any info there may be. Can anybody advise?
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Re: Alexander's languages

Post by Alexias »

I may be wrong, but I think there is some debate about whether ancient Macedonian was derived from Greek or not, but it would have been the language of the peasants. It was the language Alexander reverted to in times of stress eg the death of Cleitus. The aristocrats' language, and legal or business transactions, would have been in Greek. Philotas for example only spoke Greek - think of the split between French and English speakers in medieval England. Alexander did not learn to speak Persian - though doubtless he knew some words.
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catharine
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Re: Alexander's languages

Post by catharine »

Thank you! that is really helpful. So how did Alexander communicate with the various Persians he took under his wing - in Greek, presumably? My question was partly sparked off by reading about the death of Cleitus and how A called to his Hypaspists "in his native Macedonian" - implying that this was not the language he usually spoke. How do we know he didn't speak Persian though? And why did Philotas only speak Greek - he was Macedonian too, wasn't he?
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Re: Alexander's languages

Post by athenas owl »

Sigh....

I don't think we will ever know exactly what language Alexander spoke, beyond the Attic Greek and the Macedonian language, whatever it was.

I know I have mentioned elsewhere recently, but ALexander spent several months in Illyria when he was a teenager...how did he communicate then? And his relationships with Iranian speakers seems to have been somewhat intimate, so who knows what he picked up in language from those relationships.

Sometimes, I think his lack of knowledge of Persian was something used to stress by the writer that he remained Greek/Macedonian, whether it was true or not. Much like his adaption of Persian garb. Always rationalised for the home audience.
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Re: Alexander's languages

Post by Alexias »

catharine wrote:Thank you! that is really helpful. So how did Alexander communicate with the various Persians he took under his wing - in Greek, presumably? My question was partly sparked off by reading about the death of Cleitus and how A called to his Hypaspists "in his native Macedonian" - implying that this was not the language he usually spoke. How do we know he didn't speak Persian though? And why did Philotas only speak Greek - he was Macedonian too, wasn't he?
Greek mercenaries had been in the employ of the Persian kings for years - there were Greeks on the Persian side in the first three of Alexander's major battles and afterwards some of these came into Alexander's army - so there would have been plenty of bi-lingual translators about. Off the top of my head I can't remember the source for the Philotas info, I'm afraid.
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Re: Alexander's languages

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Alexias wrote: Greek mercenaries had been in the employ of the Persian kings for years - there were Greeks on the Persian side in the first three of Alexander's major battles and afterwards some of these came into Alexander's army - so there would have been plenty of bi-lingual translators about. Off the top of my head I can't remember the source for the Philotas info, I'm afraid.
See Curtius for Philotas. :)
Curtius 6.9.30-36 Coenus spoke next and, although he had married a sister of Philotas, he attacked him more fiercely than anyone. loudly proclaiming him a traitor to his king, country and army. [31] He then picked up a stone which happened to be lying before his feet to throw at Philotas - from a wish to save him from torture, many thought - but the king stayed his hand, declaring that the defendant must first be given an opportunity to make his defence and that he would not permit the case to proceed otherwise. [32] Philotas was then instructed to make his defence. Distracted and nonplussed, either from a guilty conscience or because of the magnitude of his peril, he did not dare to lift his eyes or open his mouth. [33] Then he burst into tears and fainted into the arms of the man holding him. He gradually recovered both his breath and his voice and, using his cloak to wipe his eyes, seemed to be about to speak. [34] Alexander fixed his gaze on him. 'The Macedonians are going to judge your case,' he said. 'Please state whether you will use your native language before them.'
[35] 'Besides the Macedonians,' replied Philotas. 'there are many present, who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the language you yourself have been using, your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you.'
[36] Then the king said: 'Do you see how offensive Philotas finds even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember that he is as contemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language.' So saying, Alexander left the meeting.
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Re: Alexander's languages

Post by Semiramis »

Alexias wrote:
catharine wrote:Thank you! that is really helpful. So how did Alexander communicate with the various Persians he took under his wing - in Greek, presumably? My question was partly sparked off by reading about the death of Cleitus and how A called to his Hypaspists "in his native Macedonian" - implying that this was not the language he usually spoke. How do we know he didn't speak Persian though? And why did Philotas only speak Greek - he was Macedonian too, wasn't he?
Greek mercenaries had been in the employ of the Persian kings for years - there were Greeks on the Persian side in the first three of Alexander's major battles and afterwards some of these came into Alexander's army - so there would have been plenty of bi-lingual translators about. Off the top of my head I can't remember the source for the Philotas info, I'm afraid.
The Achaemenid Empire had an elaborate network of translators. There were several dozen (if not hundreds) of languages spoken throughout the empire, so translators were an essential part of the day-to-day running of the court. Apparently it was not uncommon to have four translators during the same conversation with the Great King. To complicate things, official record-keeping was done in the Elamite language. I imagine Alexander used this same network of translators the way he used the Persian systems for governance, taxation, recording and numerous other things.

Mercenaries from Greece and other nations had been fighting for the Persian Great Kings long before Alexander. Although, I wonder if there were that many around after Alexander's attacks. His orders at Granicus were to encircle and massacre the Greek Mercenaries fighting for Darius even after they had asked for quarter. Would love for someone more knowledgable than myself to pitch in here. I will speculate that any surviving Greek mercenaries fighting for Persia during Alexander's time would have been left to military duties rather than being used as translators. Why waste their skills as warriors, when there's a specialist translation service available to the Great King?
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Re: Alexander's languages

Post by Nikas »

catharine wrote:Hello, I'm new to this forum. I would like to find out about the language(s) spoken by Alexander. I guess this has probably been covered somewhere on this forum but am not sure how best to find any info there may be. Can anybody advise?
Hi Catherine,

The Macedonians as a rule would have spoken their particular dialect of Greek. Currently, there is a lot of debate on where it fits overall into the Greek dialects, some believe in a North-Western Greek based on certain archaeological finds and in some sources, some place it more akin with Aeolic. Alexander would have spoken this native dialect, referred to as "Makedonisti" and similar to the regional dialect of say a Spartan, but he would also have been educated and fluent in the dominant literary and political language of his time, Athenian Attic. Perhaps a good comparison would be dialectical differences in same language families, the many dialects of Italy, Germany, or perhaps even English (I don't sound anything like an Australian for example).
Last edited by Nikas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alexander's languages

Post by Nikas »

athenas owl wrote: I know I have mentioned elsewhere recently, but ALexander spent several months in Illyria when he was a teenager...how did he communicate then? And his relationships with Iranian speakers seems to have been somewhat intimate, so who knows what he picked up in language from those relationships.
I would suspect he used a translator:

"Meanwhile Perseus arrived at Stubera, and sold the booty and gave his army a rest while waiting for the return of Pleuratus and Adaeus.
A second mission to Genthius.
On their arrival with the answer from Genthius, he immediately sent another mission, consisting again of Adaeus, Glaucias, one of his body-guards, and the Illyrian (Pleuratus) also, because he knew the Illyrian language, with the same instructions as before: on the ground that Genthius had not stated distinctly what he wanted, and what would enable him to consent to the proposals."

Polybius, 28.8
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catharine
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Re: Alexander's languages

Post by catharine »

This is all truly fascinating and many thanks to all those who have pitched in to answer my query. So I suppose it was Elamite which was the lingua franca in the Persian empire at this time, and Alexander probably used translators (he certainly doesn't seem to have had any difficulty in communicating!) for this and all the many other languages he must have encountered. And there is a clear implication in the Curtius extract that he might have avoided the Macedonian dialect as being somewhat "barbarian" and un-Greek. Though apparently this didn't stop him vilifying Philotas for not using it!

I saw a wonderful relief in the British Museum recently which shows two Assyrian scribes making simultaneous lists of booty being carried off from a captured city, in cuneiform (on clay tablet) and Aramaic (on papyrus), which I suppose was the previous lingua franca.
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Re: Alexander's languages

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catharine wrote:And there is a clear implication in the Curtius extract that he might have avoided the Macedonian dialect as being somewhat "barbarian" and un-Greek. Though apparently this didn't stop him vilifying Philotas for not using it!
Yes, your raise a good point.

The whole Curtius passage, is well, somewhat odd. Firstly, if we read the Curtius extract literally, the only thing we can say for certain based on what is in there is that Alexander avoided the Macedonian dialect so more of the assembled troops could more easily understand him (the key is the Latin "quos facilius") and that Philotas can't speak his native dialect. What makes the passage odd though is simply the context. For one, we are told that this trial is taking place in front of Macedonians:

'The Macedonians are going to judge your case,' he (Alexander) said. 'Please state whether you will use your native language before them.'

So, if it is in front of Macedonians and since we presume they should all understand their own dialect, then why has Alexander not been speaking Makedonisti up to this point?:

[35] 'Besides the Macedonians,' replied Philotas. 'there are many present, who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the language you yourself have been using, your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you.'

So, we have to make an assumption that there are "many present" who have to "more easily understand". Who are these people? I don't believe we are amiss in saying that it is the other Greeks, or heck perhaps a Persian or two? Alexander is not speaking "Makedonisti", that we have determined, so what is he speaking? Well, if he is trying to communicate with everyone present and for lack of a better suggestion (Illyrian, Thracian, Latin anyone?) then he must logically be speaking standard Greek, meaning of course Athenian Greek.

But here is the rub. If the case is being tried by the Macedonians, and really only they are ultimately going to judge Philotas, then by necessity they too would have to understand what Philotas is going to say, which is most likely standard Greek, meaning of course the Athenian type and when I say the Macedonians, from what I recall this is the body of the Macedonian army, or at least a good representation thereof, so basically all social classes and all geographic areas of Macedon. Yet they could all understand? I guess with extreme difficulty I can pick up on Irish, Texan or Australian :)

[36] Then the king said: 'Do you see how offensive Philotas finds even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember that he is as contemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language.' So saying, Alexander left the meeting.

I can't help but draw the analogy, that Philotas is being labelled as almost a snob to good for everyone else if you know what I mean. I guess it's like me trying to effect a proper English (England that is) accent in my neck of the woods. The laughter I would be subjected to…

Like I said, an odd passage.
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Re: Alexander's languages

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Nikas wrote:
catharine wrote:And there is a clear implication in the Curtius extract that he might have avoided the Macedonian dialect as being somewhat "barbarian" and un-Greek. Though apparently this didn't stop him vilifying Philotas for not using it!
Yes, your raise a good point.

The whole Curtius passage, is well, somewhat odd. Firstly, if we read the Curtius extract literally, the only thing we can say for certain based on what is in there is that Alexander avoided the Macedonian dialect so more of the assembled troops could more easily understand him (the key is the Latin "quos facilius") and that Philotas can't speak his native dialect. What makes the passage odd though is simply the context. For one, we are told that this trial is taking place in front of Macedonians:

'The Macedonians are going to judge your case,' he (Alexander) said. 'Please state whether you will use your native language before them.'

So, if it is in front of Macedonians and since we presume they should all understand their own dialect, then why has Alexander not been speaking Makedonisti up to this point?:

[35] 'Besides the Macedonians,' replied Philotas. 'there are many present, who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the language you yourself have been using, your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you.'

So, we have to make an assumption that there are "many present" who have to "more easily understand". Who are these people? I don't believe we are amiss in saying that it is the other Greeks, or heck perhaps a Persian or two? Alexander is not speaking "Makedonisti", that we have determined, so what is he speaking? Well, if he is trying to communicate with everyone present and for lack of a better suggestion (Illyrian, Thracian, Latin anyone?) then he must logically be speaking standard Greek, meaning of course Athenian Greek.

But here is the rub. If the case is being tried by the Macedonians, and really only they are ultimately going to judge Philotas, then by necessity they too would have to understand what Philotas is going to say, which is most likely standard Greek, meaning of course the Athenian type. Now, when I say the Macedonians, from what I recall this is the body of the Macedonian army, or at least a good representation thereof, so basically all social classes and all geographic areas of Macedon should be represented? (If anyone knows otherwise please correct me). Yet they could all understand standard Greek?

I guess with extreme difficulty I can pick up on Irish, Texan or Australian :)

[36] Then the king said: 'Do you see how offensive Philotas finds even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember that he is as contemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language.' So saying, Alexander left the meeting.

I can't help but draw the analogy, that Philotas is being labelled as almost a snob to good for everyone else if you know what I mean. I guess it's like me trying to effect a proper English (England that is) accent in my neck of the woods, but be unable, or unwilling, to speak my local dialect. The laughter I would be subjected to…

Like I said, an odd passage.
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Re: Alexander's languages

Post by Semiramis »

Hi Nikas,

What's the evidence for Greek and Macedonian being different dialects? Has there been any scholarly suggestion of them being different languages? To use your example, I am not Australian, Texan or Irish but find it pretty easy to understand those accents. I can also have a pretty good go at the Queen's English (to what comedic effect I dare not judge ;) ).

In contrast, it's clear that during the trial of Philotas, it was a matter of Greek-speaking people not understanding Macedonian at all. I'm not sure the parallels you draw between different English accents with Greek and Macedonian actually hold.
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Re: Alexander's languages

Post by Nikas »

Semiramis wrote:Hi Nikas,

What's the evidence for Greek and Macedonian being different dialects? Has there been any scholarly suggestion of them being different languages? To use your example, I am not Australian, Texan or Irish but find it pretty easy to understand those accents. I can also have a pretty good go at the Queen's English (to what comedic effect I dare not judge ;) ).

In contrast, it's clear that during the trial of Philotas, it was a matter of Greek-speaking people not understanding Macedonian at all. I'm not sure the parallels you draw between different English accents with Greek and Macedonian actually hold.
Hi Semiramis, to be entirely fair there are of course scholarly opinions to the effect of them being different languages as well (Borza, Badian, come to top of mind) but even some of these scholars may have varying degrees of a "Hellenic" relationship of Macedonian to Greek, maybe not a dialect but perhaps within a broader "Hellenic" family. It's just that the evidence to Macedonian being a dialect of Greek is somewhat overwhelming when one really considers the onomastics, numismatics, topographical information available, the literary sources, as well as the inscriptions and epigraphical evidence that has been dug up in Macedonia the last few years, which has come a very long way. You can refer to Masson, Kalleris, Hatzopoulos, Hammond, for starters for their research on the subject and draw your own conclusions from there.

As for the trial of Philotas, to the contrary I do not believe it is at all clear that it is a matter of "Greek-speaking people not understanding Macedonian" as you say, and for all the reasons I have stated. I have said why I believe that passage is odd and contradictory, and it does no such thing. You may have to address the points individually and we can go from there.

As for English accents, I consider myself very fluent in English having been born and raised in the language, and I tell you that I have problems making out an Irish or Australian accent if they do not slow it down, and I stand fast with that and I am hardly the only one I know in a similar situation. I am not saying that I can't make it out at all, I am saying that I "more easily" understand if someone uses my own particular dialect :) If you prefer another example, try Cantonese and Mandarin. Both Chinese, and I can assure you they cannot understand each other almost at all.
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Re: Alexander's languages

Post by catharine »

It is indeed an odd passage - odder the more you think about it. It certainly looks as though Alexander regarded Macedonian as a different language, otherwise why ask the question? Obviously it was sufficiently different for non-Macedonians not to understand it. Does that make it another language or a dialect (I'm no expert on this - I suppose there is a scholarly definition somewhere)? I'm also a native English speaker but there are very few dialects of the language (very broad Glaswegian perhaps) which I think I would have significant difficulty in understanding. On the other hand you mention Mandarin and Cantonese as being mutually unintelligible; I met a Chinese lady the other day who insisted that Cantonese should not be referred to as a language but as a dialect.

And if Macedonian was a version/dialect of Greek which was as different from Attic as for example Irish or Glaswegian from "standard" English, then would Alexander have referred to it twice as his "native tongue", given that he was a wannabe Greek (wasn't he?).

I looked up Curtius, who has Alexander use the term "sermo", qualified by either "patrius" or "noster", both of which strongly identify him with it. Philotas uses "lingua". Doesn't really help much since both words can be used to mean either a language or a manner of speaking, dialect. Quintilian (according to Lewis & Short) in talking about the Greek language(s) seems to use "lingua" in the sense of a dialect.
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