Upcoming Oxford Exhibit - Items from Aigai

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Semiramis
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Re: Upcoming Oxford Exhibit - Items from Aigai

Post by Semiramis »

Nikas wrote: Paralus wrote:As I say, imagine an Orkney Islander and a Londoner conversing over a beer...

Or a Canadian and an Australian? :)
The combination of Aussies, pommes and beer during the Ashes cannot end well. :P
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Paralus
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Re: Upcoming Oxford Exhibit - Items from Aigai

Post by Paralus »

Nikas wrote:For the "plethos ton barbaron" it's difficult to say. It could just be a contingent of barbarian troops that Perdiccas has gotten from somewhere that Thucydides doesn't elaborate on (and in Thucydides world view there were enough around to choose from) or even as you see it, serfs of Macedonia (after all, all of Greece had an indigenous population prior to the arrival of the Greeks, such as the Pelasgians), but what I think is important is that Thucydides is careful in distinguishing them, there are Macedonians, and then there are barbarians, but they are not one and the same. At some future point, these "barbaroi" may have become Macedonians, if they are indeed the impressed serfs, but at the time of Perdiccas, it does not appear that they were considered as Macedonians so we cannot say for sure. Yes, the detail of an Arrian would have been helpful!
I think that Thucydides here speaks of the Macedonian nobility - the cavalry - as "Makedones". At this time the "general" population were indentured serf-farmers at the beck and call of their "feudal lord". What I think Thucydides is indicating is that these are the crowd of barbaroi. Again, at this time it is rather difficult to see Perdiccas - in "control" only of the lower Macedonian plain - mustering a "crowd of barbarians" who are somehow respondent to him for Brasidas has not raised them. It is unlikely he had the money to hire them all and, if he did, from where did he get them?

These, I'm sure, are those whom Philip II will make Makedones as he expands his kingdom and grants land. Those that Alexander refers to as having been transformed from transhumant pastoralists / farmers dressed in hides and at the whim of their overlords to owners of empire. Thus the barbarians are the vast bulk of the Macedonians who are still servile farmes and yet to become the Makedones of Philip II.

Does this mean that the Hellanadonikai might have considered the Macedonian king's "hetairoi" as eligable for competition?

Nikas wrote:
Paralus wrote:As I say, imagine an Orkney Islander and a Londoner conversing over a beer...
Or a Canadian and an Australian? :)
Never had a problem with Canadians over a beer. Only barmaids that refused to let me leave a table (Toronto) with a beer. She wasn't impressed when I sat in the middle of the table.

It was a Macedonian symposia style of thing...
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Paralus
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Re: Upcoming Oxford Exhibit - Items from Aigai

Post by Paralus »

Semiramis wrote:
Nikas wrote: Paralus wrote:As I say, imagine an Orkney Islander and a Londoner conversing over a beer...

Or a Canadian and an Australian? :)
The combination of Aussies, pommes and beer during the Ashes cannot end well. :P
Not for the Poms, no. They're already celebrating. Nothing like premature adulation.

I note Duncan Fletcher handing out gratuitous advice in yesterday's newspapers. I, for one, hope England management take it to heart. "Fletch" coached England to a 0-5 whitewash in the previous (2006/7) tour...
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Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Nikas
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Re: Upcoming Oxford Exhibit - Items from Aigai

Post by Nikas »

Paralus wrote:I think that Thucydides here speaks of the Macedonian nobility - the cavalry - as "Makedones". At this time the "general" population were indentured serf-farmers at the beck and call of their "feudal lord". What I think Thucydides is indicating is that these are the crowd of barbaroi. Again, at this time it is rather difficult to see Perdiccas - in "control" only of the lower Macedonian plain - mustering a "crowd of barbarians" who are somehow respondent to him for Brasidas has not raised them. It is unlikely he had the money to hire them all and, if he did, from where did he get them?

These, I'm sure, are those whom Philip II will make Makedones as he expands his kingdom and grants land. Those that Alexander refers to as having been transformed from transhumant pastoralists / farmers dressed in hides and at the whim of their overlords to owners of empire. Thus the barbarians are the vast bulk of the Macedonians who are still servile farmes and yet to become the Makedones of Philip II.

Does this mean that the Hellanadonikai might have considered the Macedonian king's "hetairoi" as eligable for competition?
I don't deny that some of the population of Macedonia may have been "barbarians", but I hold that the "Makedones" themselves were not. This passage simply says that the Makedones cavalry fought alongside with the Chalcidians, but that could be because Perdiccas did not feel he had any infantry worthy of the name, especially with the Spartans and other Peloponnesians already supplying the hoplites, which would have been far better than anything he could muster. As for hiring the barbarians, well actually at the outset of the campaign we are told:

(5)Perdiccas however retorted that he had not brought Brasidas with him to arbitrate in their quarrel but to subdue the enemies whom he might point out to him; and that while he, Perdiccas, was paying for half of his army it was a breach of faith for Brasidas to parley with Arrhabaeus. (6) Nevertheless, Brasidas disregarded the wishes of Perdiccas and had the parley in spite of him, and allowed himself to be persuaded to lead off the army without invading the country of Arrhabaeus; after which Perdiccas, holding that Brasidas had not kept faith with him, contributed only a third instead of half of the support of the army." (4.83)

Perdiccas seems to have about 2/3 of his original funds back that he thought would be gone to go and buy a few barbarians, which couldn't have been that hard too find in the borderlands. As for the "hetairoi" , I would say yes but I suspect they too would have had to do a little convincing/reminding that they too were part of the club.
Paralus wrote:Never had a problem with Canadians over a beer. Only barmaids that refused to let me leave a table (Toronto) with a beer. She wasn't impressed when I sat in the middle of the table.
It was a Macedonian symposia style of thing...
We Canadians are generally pretty polite. I think the barmaid was just concerned that you may not have had enough to share :)
Last edited by Nikas on Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Paralus
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Re: Upcoming Oxford Exhibit - Items from Aigai

Post by Paralus »

The money that Thucydides mentions will have have been what Perdiccas' was to "kick the tin" for. He was utilising the forces (including mercenaries) that Brasidas had organised and they had to be financed - particularly as Perdiccas was to be the beneficiary. That Brasidas then decides to parlay sees Perdiccas miffed, quite naturally, given that he is stumping to support Brasidas' forces for the campaign. I do not think it in any way implies Perdiccas hiring a "crowd of barbarians" from the borderlands.

I strongly think the crowd of barbarians are the - at this time - indentured serf population Macedonians.

I think the barmaid realised I'd plenty to share - possibly too much. She couldn't get over my willingness to walk from a table - with a beer - to another table or to the dart board. For some reason one had to be seated at the table to drink a beer. Perhaps matters have changed since...
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Nikas
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Re: Upcoming Oxford Exhibit - Items from Aigai

Post by Nikas »

Paralus wrote:The money that Thucydides mentions will have have been what Perdiccas' was to "kick the tin" for. He was utilising the forces (including mercenaries) that Brasidas had organised and they had to be financed - particularly as Perdiccas was to be the beneficiary. That Brasidas then decides to parlay sees Perdiccas miffed, quite naturally, given that he is stumping to support Brasidas' forces for the campaign. I do not think it in any way implies Perdiccas hiring a "crowd of barbarians" from the borderlands.

I strongly think the crowd of barbarians are the - at this time - indentured serf population Macedonians.

I think the barmaid realised I'd plenty to share - possibly too much. She couldn't get over my willingness to walk from a table - with a beer - to another table or to the dart board. For some reason one had to be seated at the table to drink a beer. Perhaps matters have changed since...
You are right, it does not necessarily mean he did hire a "crowd of barbarians" but some time did lapse from that campaign while Brasidas took care of some other business before returning back to Perdiccas, so it is a plausibility. I continue to think that the crowd of barbarians were something all together different than the Macedonians, and as Thucydides doesn't tell us that they were Macedonians, we just don't have enough information to say what else they were.

Matters have changed since I am happy to report, although until even only a few years back my city still had the reputation of a "no-fun city".
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Re: Upcoming Oxford Exhibit - Items from Aigai

Post by Paralus »

Nikas wrote: I continue to think that the crowd of barbarians were something all together different than the Macedonians, and as Thucydides doesn't tell us that they were Macedonians, we just don't have enough information to say what else they were.
Indeed - Thucydides does not consider them "citizens" or Makedones for they are servile as the slaves in Attica were not so recognised even though often pressed into service on triremes.
Nikas wrote:Matters have changed since I am happy to report, although until even only a few years back my city still had the reputation of a "no-fun city".
Glad to hear it: might have to test that out.
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Re: Upcoming Oxford Exhibit - Items from Aigai

Post by marcus »

Leaving aside the discussions of the bibendive (?) merits of various cities ... for a while I had been wondering *where* in Oxford this exhibition is going to be. I have managed to confirm that it will, as I suspected, be at the Ashmolean Museum, although the museum is not publicising it yet.

It starts on April 11, or something like that.

If any UK based (or otherwise) Pothosians would be interested in making this an opportunity for a meeting, let me know - I'd definitely be up for it, and I will be going to the exhibition!

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