What if?

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dean
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What if?

Post by dean »

Hello,Just here with another what if scenario. This one was raised by Robin Lane Fox, in the directors' commentary on the dvd Alexander.He wonders what would have happened if Alexander had caught Darius alive.I wonder indeed.I think that he would have treated him pretty much as he had treated the rest of his family with respect but then again who knows, what do you reckon?Best wishes,
Dean.
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marcus
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Re: What if?

Post by marcus »

A difficult one, Dean. I imagine that Alexander, in the end, was glad that he *didn't* capture Darius, because he wasn't put in the position of having to make that decision. He could afford to be magnanimous and honourable with Darius dead ... otherwise he would probably have had to kill him, which would have caused all sorts of problems. All the bestMarcus
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beausefaless
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Re: What if?

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Linda
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Re: What if?

Post by Linda »

Actually, it was all very lucky he got there just after Darius died...someimes I wonder exactly how much of Alexander's luck he made himself...Linda
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nick
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earlier cases

Post by nick »

Alexander had pretty much the ambition to rule the Persian empire in the way that his Persian / Eastern subjects would understand and would accept as genuine kingship.In this respect it is relevant to note that, as far as I can recall, we have no earlier incident of a new Persian king grasping power from a legitimate ruling king. That just never happened in Persia before. So Alexander wouldn't have - indeed - no earlier role model to decide what to do if Darius had been handed him alive.The fact is that parenticide was a great taboo in ancient Persia. No matter how ambitious Persian princes might have been, they have never killed their fathers (nor is there evidence of plots, like maybe Alexander was involved in a plot to kill Philip). So we have no single case of a son or prince who captured a ruling king, ascended to the throne, and had to wonder what to do next. That simply never happened in Persia.Darius' namesake Darius I rose to Persian kingship by killing the usurper Gaumata. But Gaumata was stigmatized as a false king, an imposter. Artaxerxes killed his brother Cyrus in battle at Cunaxa. But Cyrus was not the king: Artaxerxes was. It would have been interesting to think what would have happened if Cyrus had captured Artaxerxes alive at Cunaxa.The only way out for Alexander would have been to stress the fact that Darius III was an imposter too, someone who had never had the legimate rights to the throne. That wouldn't have been that difficult: after the death of Arses the original line of kings had stopped. Darius III was only quite remotely related to the line of kings that started with Darius I.As soon as Darius would have been accepted as an usurper, Alexander could have done as he pleased. (There are some pretty disturbing stories in Plutarch's Life of Artaxerxes.)Regards ---Nick
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Re: earlier cases

Post by jan »

L*nda may be very perceptive, but the one thing that has always intrigued me about King Darius is how could he have possibly fought a battle while riding in his chariot. He appears to have been more of a spectator than a fighter, and was being protected by his bodyguards so much that he could not even have thrown a spear. (I am referring to the suggestion that he had actually speared Alexander in the thigh, something that I do not believe likely or possible.)
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Re: What if?

Post by Taphoi »

I think we know how alexander would have treated Darius had he not been murdered, because we know how he treated Porus. We know that he had befriended Darius' family, especially his mother. It is implausible that he should have befriended Sisygambis had he intended to kill her son. We know that Oxathres, Darius' brother, became one of Alexander's most loyal lieutenants. We know that Alexander hunted down and executed Darius' murderers relentlessly and that he cast his own cloak over Darius' corpse. We know that he married Darius' elder daughter and that Hephaistion married the younger. We know that he had been careful not to claim the throne of Persia, but rather the overarching kingship of Asia in its entirety and that he had already offered that Darius should retain his throne as Alexander's vassal. We know that Alexander is history's greatest exponent of the gentle art of magnanimity. If we think about it, we know everything we need to know to work out what Alexander would have done, had Darius lived.Best wishes,Andrew
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Re: What if?

Post by nick »

Hi Andrew ---I suppose the comparison between Darius and Porus falls short on one crucial aspect: Alexander took over Darius kingship over a world empire, while the (relatively very, very small) realm of rajah Porus was added to that empire as a vassal kingdom. (Maybe backed with an historical claim that the Indus valley was once under full Persian control in the days of Darius I.)I do not believe that we can compare Darius' or Alexander's status as "King of Asia", "King of Kings", "King of the World" with that of Porus, ruler of Paurava. In my eyes, the treatment of Porus says very little about the possible treatment of Darius.Regards ---Nick
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Re: What if?

Post by Taphoi »

Hi Nick,Of course, Alexander would not have accepted Darius as King of Kings, but merely as lord of Persia.It is implicit in Alexander's first letter to Darius after Issus (Arrian 2.14.4-9) that Darius might keep his lands, if he were to accept Alexander's overlordship, so it would seem that this had already been established as a resolution acceptable to Alexander.If you don't like the Porus example, there are dozens of other cases where Alexander reinstated honorable opponents as rulers, subject to them accepting his supremacy: Mazaeus, Oxyartes, Cleophis... It was only the criminals like Bessus who got their just desserts. The pattern is repeated sufficiently regularly as to show that it was policy.I don't really follow your logic on Porus though: he was probably the most significant king in the region of the upper Indus. He would seem an excellent parallel to Darius, at least on the particular question of how Alexander would have treated the latter.Best wishes,Andrew
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Re: What if?

Post by amyntoros »

But surely the risk was too great - to leave Darius behind while moving on towards India? How many Macedonian soldiers could Alexander leave with him to make sure that various satraps didn't rebel and return to Darius' side? Oh sure, they had all deserted him once, but people often do have a change of heart and they might have decided that a usurper was preferable to a foreigner ruling, for no matter what title Alexander gave Darius it would have been obvious who was really in charge.Alexander was away for years and years; I simply can't see him taking that chance. I think he went through all the motions of intending to reinstate Darius, but that he never intended to take him alive.Porus was another matter. The Indians were on the outskirts of the empire and needed to be defeated in order to protect its borders. Alexander could afford to be magnanimous here. And none of the other "honorable" opponents compared. Darius would have been left in the heart of Persia. I think it was just too dangerous to consider. . .Best regards,Amyntoros
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kenny
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Re: What if?

Post by kenny »

Andrew.I just peeped and although I adore Alexander I think it served his purpose better that he was dead.Indeed he couldnt leave Darius in anyway in power whilst he was east,, Although I think Darius lost any credibility at all. Both by been on the run and fleeing both battles.I doubt Alexander had any respect or the like for Darius as he did Porus.Alexander admired and rewarded bravery and courage as he di with the way Porus fought tooth and nail. Unlike Darius as soon as it got risky he was off.Im not here on a regular basis as I dont want to start rows but I always liked your posts Andrew but I feel you wrong here Indeed we all know Alexander was the most magnaminous victor but to leave Darius in any power is to counter productive. Someone pointed out that Alexander made his own luck indeed I agree. maybe it wasnt beyond the Macedonian who found him dying to finish him off it. ties up a nasty loose and. And the honouring etc we all know Alexander was good at theatrics and playing the crowd.Regards
kenny
jan
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Re: What if?

Post by jan »

Andrew,
I have to disagree. The reason that Alexander treated King Porus so well is that he stood and fought back, that he acted with courage and valor, and did not run away from the fight. King Darius turned and ran when he saw the ferocity of Alexander, and let his bodyguards do his work for him. He did not even stand up for himself at all, and Alexander would never have treated him as he did King Porus. Alexander would have had contempt for King Darius, not respect.Since this is an if question, I don't ever try to play games with what was. It is pointless. Alexander let King Darius slip away, as Alexander was trying to bring down as many Persians as he could. When he finally got the opportunity to deal with King Darius, Darius had already succeeded in getting away. It is somewhat peculiar that while Darius is the target, Alexander had to deal with the fighting men instead of the man in the chariot. Probably a bit like chess.
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Re: What if?

Post by jan »

Well, Kenny, I wrote my post before I read yours but I am happy to see we think alike on this. There is a vast difference between the behaviour of King Porus and King Darius, and luckily for Alexander, Darius's own men dealt Alexander a better round in this deck of cards.
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smittysmitty
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Re: earlier cases

Post by smittysmitty »

Hi Nick,
'No matter how ambitious Persian princes might have been, they have never killed their fathers (nor is there evidence of plots, like maybe Alexander was involved in a plot to kill Philip)'. Hadn't Darius, son of Artaxerxes II conspired to kill his father and the reason why he himself lost his life? Herodotus' account of only an illegitimate child or changeling would attempt patricide may be an oversimplified view of Persian custom. From what I can gather, the Achaemenids were a volatile lot and not that different to the Argeads of Macedon and their own inner squabbles.Perhaps an inherent part of monarchies through out
the world at the time?I do tend to agree with everything else you say however re. ATG's actions in the 'what if' scenario.
cheers!
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Re: What if?

Post by Taphoi »

If Darius had publicly performed proskynesis to Alexander and blessed his daughter's marriage to him, then he would not have posed a significant military threat to Alexander if he had been appointed Satrap of Persis (with a Macedonian garrison of course). But this arrangement would have been invaluable to Alexander as a means of legitimising his rule with his new subjects. Mazaeus would have been a more credible rebel leader than Darius in the eyes of Persians, yet he was reappointed Satrap of Babylonia.Something mysterious happens according to Arrian just before Darius is deposed by Bessus and his cronies. Arrian says that Alexander stopped for five days whilst in hot pursuit of Darius. This is very much out of character, because Alexander was normally relentless in this kind of endeavour. I wonder whether Darius might not have sent a message to Alexander offering to surrender on terms such as the above and whether Alexander might not have decided to accept the offer. The next thing that happens in Arrian is that Alexander receives word that Darius has been deposed and Alexander instantly recommences the chase. This would also explain just why Darius was deposed at that point, for he would have had to announce the deal to his senior courtiers.If Bessus had believed that Alexander would kill Darius, then why would he not have handed him over to Alexander instead of making himself a regicide?Best wishes,Andrew
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