Macedonia vs Sparta

[Pete]

Anyone know what the Chremonidean War was about?
I cant find much detail about it. I'm sure Thermopylae was a great inspiration to Alexander during his campaigns. Question? would 300 Macedonians have put up a similar fight? I dont know myself despite the fact the Macedonians much later crushed all before them.

[davej]

I suppose it depends on what era you are talking about. If we are talking about the Persian Wars when the Spartans fought Xerxes at Thermopylae then No chance in hell. The Spartans were by far and away the best fighters in the world. You must however take into account the superiority of their equipment and there choice of battlefield.In similar circumstances a Hellenistic Macedonian Phalanx would have fare much the same in my opinion so long as the Persians tried to take the pass by force. The problem for the Macedonians against the Persians in the same circumstances is the Persians would have resorted to Archers fairlty early on. The Macedonian phalanx would not have stood up to the sustained missile fire. They simply did not have the armour. My opinion only.

[agesilaos]

In 480 bc Macedonia had no real infantry force and later Antiochos III's phalanx failed to hold Thermopylae against the Romans, being out flanked by the very same path used by Xerxes; those who fail to learn from history etc.The trouble with the phalanx would be the rough terrain breaking its formation and the difficulty of counter-attacking in the same way as the Spartans did.Alexander, however would have re-armed the nimblest of the phalanx with javelins to hold the pass and stationed a chiliarchy of Hypaspists to guard the path, probably with the Agrianians in support, his was the more flexible army and his generalship is certainly superior to that of Leonidas.

[yiannis]

It's beyond me why everyone is praising the Spartans (very rightly so) so much and forgets the 700 Thespians who shared the same fate.
Don't forget that the Spartans were professionals while the Thespians were conscripts who volunteered. For a small city as Thespies was, this loss was a real catastrophe. (Have I posted this comment once before?)Naturally, Alexander would have picked a different approach, considering the troops he had at his disposal. However, it's ironic to thing of the battle at the Persian Gates, against Ariobarsanes, where he was rescued from a difficult situation by a Persian traitor this time, who showed him the way to bypass the gates with a light force and attack the Persian from the rear.Talk about history repeating itself!

[davej]

Quite right Yiannis, everybody does tend to forget that the Spartans were not alone. There was actually about 4000 troops in all unti the last day or so. The Thepians shared the same fate as the Spartans, appeartly by choice. This is cause for admiration, however I think not to put ot fine a point on it what impresses people most about the Sparta is not that they all died but the fcat they held on so long. The Thespians would have taken years to recover from such a low to there population in uch the sae way as the egarians suffered during the lead up to Plataea i think they lost sothing like 20% of their male population I have figures, somewhere I'll looki t up if i have to. Lets we forget the Thespians. Country with sall population suffer terrily during large war We Australian know this all too well. Our losses in percentage wise are appalling during the world wars.regards . Dj.

[davej]

hi Karl, No dobt Alexander would have adapted his tatics to suit and would have fared well I suspect. However Aleander was'nt the only acedonian general i was answering the question on the lose parameters provided ie Macedonian. I wonder how ATG would have coped without being able to utilise his cavalry arm???????? Food for thought.

[agesilaos]

Alexande was not tied to the use of cavalry, in the operations against the Pisidians around Telmissos Arrian expressly states that only infantry were involved the ground being unsuitable for the horse.A bigger question is how would he cope with being on the defensive? I cannot recall him ever being in such a position.

[aen]

Karl,That's not like you; you've usually got perfect recall.He was put on the defensive at Pelion; initially by the Dardanian Illyrians under Cleitus, and then even more so with the arrival of the Taulantians under Glaucias. His nibs opted for the famous drill display and withdrawal (after a few manouvres to clear his retreat - he was hemmed in on virtually every side) before returning and nailing them shortly afterwards.As to a Thermopylae: I don't think he would have opted for the phalanx in there. But the Hypaspysts might have fared well enough. Remember, they were such a formidable hoplite body that efforts were made during the wars of the successors to break them up into minute units so as to prevent them wreaking the explosive havoc everyone knew they could if united under one command. And they were oldsters at that stage too.I think he would have tried to force a headlong running retreat amongst the Persian vanguard with the hypaspysts, and sent his horse to follow behind once it got going.

[agesilaos]

I take the point, but had not overlooked this action. I agree that in a strategic sense he was on the defensive but his solution was a tactical offensive, a similar situation arises at Issus when Darius cuts his supply lines and the solution is the same; an offensive.I think situation at Thermopylae would only permit a holding action, something for which Alexander was temperamentally unsuited.Thanks for the vote of confidence in my powers of recall, my friends would tell you I'm always forgetting who's round it is!For a definitive answer to this thread we need a rather more specific scenario. Having been to Thermopylae I don't think you could charge cavalry through the pass it is pretty rugged although the alluvial deposit from the Sperchios has created a broad plain the terrain was restricted to the mountain spurs in antiquity. Debouching into the wider ground, as the Spartans did on the final day would allow the Persians to make use of their numbers.Finally, I remain to be convinced about the hoplite armament of the Hypaspists but that would be a whole new thread, indeed I think it has been. Chaire

[aen]

Agreed.He did counter with a circumspect offensive at Pelion. I think it was Napoleon who stated that this sort of response was the most effective form of defense. The point being, for me at least, that he was wrong footed, and, unlike Issus, had to withdraw from the face of the opposition . . . 'but only (I'm sure he would have appropriated the sentiments if not the exact phraseology of his father's words) to butt all the harder on returning.'Agreed also that the current configuration around Thermopylae bears little relationship (on the Eastward side) to what was there at the time of the Spartans' heroics, and that filtering large bodies of horse through the slender gap between seaward cliffs and the northern spurs would have been tricky. However, it wouldn't have to occur at a gallop to be effective, and the terrain, although uneven, is not impossible. Our pal, Xenophon, makes much of riders preparing themselves for rough ground, steep inclines, etc. I'd imagine the Macedonians would have managed it.I'm assuming such a course of action because, like you, I think Alexander was temperamentally unsuited to the alternative of sit and see.Indeed, there is little conclusive evidence as to the precise armed nature of the Hypaspysts. I think we would be safe in assuming, though, that they would have been a more disciplined, compact and dynamic body than their Persian equivalents. Given that the Phalanx was a holding or driving arm best suited to the level field I can't see him putting them to the fore.Come to think of it, didn't the Macedonians later turn the pass by cutting a stepped path over the mountainside. Perhaps Alexander would have opted for something like that as well. He was a fan of mixing it up in stubborn spots. Something iconic about Thermopylae, isn't there? When I visited it, someone had placed a few wildflowers on the tablet that sits on the mound. They were a bit wilted, but that took nothing away from the gesture. With those forbidding oppressive heights and the stink of sulphur all around, it really stopped me in my tracks. How on earth the Spartans managed to find the fibre to do what they did, particularly towards the end . . . Shivers down the spine.