The Granikos battle
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Re: The Granikos battle
I think Alexander preferred a spear as the extra reach would be crucial in getting a first strike. I dont think the infantry crossed until the Persians were routed disorder spelled death to any phalanx.But the cavalry had to remain stationed opposite them to oppose any attempt that might be made.Embolon can mean a wedge shape but can also be used of a deep formation as Xenophon uses it of the Thebans at Leuctra.
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
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smittysmitty
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Re: The Granikos battle
Hi Karl,
unfortunately I don't have the expertise to read Arrian in its original form, however I'm led to believe Aubrey De Selincourt is a fairly honest translation of the tesxt.Regarding the Companions and ATG routing the Persians, my version of the text is so very different.I quote: ' The Persians were now in a bad way:there was no escape for horse or rider from the thrust of spears; they were being forced back from their position and, ( this is the important part ) in addition to the weight of the main attack (being the infantry)they were suffering considerable damage
form the light armed troops who had forced their way in among the cavalry. They began to break just at the point when Alexander was bearing the brunt of things.' end quote.Essentially, Alexander and the Companions were fairing the worst of it until they are supported by the Agrianes and other light troops in his sector.I further quote: ' Once the centre had failed to hold, both wings of the Persian cavalry broke, too, and the route was complete.' end quote.The centre being refered to is where the infantry are positioned as is stated earlier when Arrian discusses the battle order of the troops. Alexander is positioned on the right wing, and it is here that the Persians stack their cavalry with numbers ; that is on the Persian left.
Your earlier suggestion that ATG moves of to the centre to attack Mithridates ( as a commander he held central position ) is highly improbable. The likelihood of there being enough room to transfer right to the centre means they would have had to run down stream up a bank and attack without interfering with the main attack in the centre.
Sorry, I can't see that happening, nor can I see the initial opposition he's facing on the right allowing him to just run off and do as he pleases.Realisticaly! this was a poor battle ,and always was going to be so for the Macedonian cavalry! Virtually useless! If not for the light troops reeking havoc on the right, Al and his Companions were pushing #%@! up hill. And if not for the infantry breaking the centre ( a disordered infantry I may add), we may have kissed Al goodby altogether and Arrian would have had little to write about.So, I guess I just can't see where you get this idea ATG and the Companions were the victorious ones. I'm quite certain, Parmenio must have felt Al was being a real #$@! head with his charge, but he was just a kid and you try telling a kid he's wrong!
unfortunately I don't have the expertise to read Arrian in its original form, however I'm led to believe Aubrey De Selincourt is a fairly honest translation of the tesxt.Regarding the Companions and ATG routing the Persians, my version of the text is so very different.I quote: ' The Persians were now in a bad way:there was no escape for horse or rider from the thrust of spears; they were being forced back from their position and, ( this is the important part ) in addition to the weight of the main attack (being the infantry)they were suffering considerable damage
form the light armed troops who had forced their way in among the cavalry. They began to break just at the point when Alexander was bearing the brunt of things.' end quote.Essentially, Alexander and the Companions were fairing the worst of it until they are supported by the Agrianes and other light troops in his sector.I further quote: ' Once the centre had failed to hold, both wings of the Persian cavalry broke, too, and the route was complete.' end quote.The centre being refered to is where the infantry are positioned as is stated earlier when Arrian discusses the battle order of the troops. Alexander is positioned on the right wing, and it is here that the Persians stack their cavalry with numbers ; that is on the Persian left.
Your earlier suggestion that ATG moves of to the centre to attack Mithridates ( as a commander he held central position ) is highly improbable. The likelihood of there being enough room to transfer right to the centre means they would have had to run down stream up a bank and attack without interfering with the main attack in the centre.
Sorry, I can't see that happening, nor can I see the initial opposition he's facing on the right allowing him to just run off and do as he pleases.Realisticaly! this was a poor battle ,and always was going to be so for the Macedonian cavalry! Virtually useless! If not for the light troops reeking havoc on the right, Al and his Companions were pushing #%@! up hill. And if not for the infantry breaking the centre ( a disordered infantry I may add), we may have kissed Al goodby altogether and Arrian would have had little to write about.So, I guess I just can't see where you get this idea ATG and the Companions were the victorious ones. I'm quite certain, Parmenio must have felt Al was being a real #$@! head with his charge, but he was just a kid and you try telling a kid he's wrong!
Re: The Granikos battle
You are right of course and I am disapointed with myself for making an eror based on a modern article I know to be full of mistakes. I was sucked in by PA Manti erronious translation from the Ancient World Vol 25 1994.. He claims but spikes were called soters because they were saviours. It sounded right so i did'nt check (that is'nt like me). The rest of his article is crap as well , I should have know better. I looked up sauroter in my Liddell and Scott it says "a spike atthe but-end of a spear"... Deriv uncertain. I could not find Soter in the Liddell and Scott at all which makes me wonder if Soter is not a Macedonian word. Can you shed any light on that. Greek is most definatly not my first language.Sorry for miscorrecting you I did not mean to be officious.Now I have even more grounds to go after that moron Manti.
Re: The Granikos battle
Hi Karl,It is so bloddy hot down here tonight I could really do with some air conditioning, know any good installers?Embolon I though means to drive into something, which would usually be a wedge. I don't think you are right about Leuktra, I think embolon in that instance was because the formation was so narrow and deep it petrated the Spartan line. I think in the case of Cavalry it would be a wedge, but I could be swayed otherwise, particulary given the suspect nature of the source material in this case.Respect and regards.Dj