Hephaestion as Alexander

[jan]

Thanks, as there are many cases in which Jesus and Alexander can be compared, for their belief in being son of God, for being resurrected and carried into Heaven, this simply struck me as having a familiar ring to it...In Godless Man by Paul Doherty, he makes an even greater comparison in Alpha and Omega, but his is pure fiction; nonethless, the conclusion is much the same.I just find it interesting that as the Jews knew of Alexander since he had visited in that region that the stories of Jesus are so similar.

[jan]

I like the comparison to a bum, John, but I really believe that he liked the fact that Diogenes spoke to him in such a manner as to be honest and direct. Too much fawning and supercilious behaviour can make one appreciate simple honesty. I always took it that he liked his ability to speak his mind in such a forthright manner, obviously unimpressed with Alexander's station in life. As all quotations go, this one is probably misconstrued also. You are probably right that he may have had a hidden desire to be a bum, but I doubt it seriously. His personality is more suited to that of dashing world conqueror.

[Linda]

Re Jesus and Alexander - I cannot see similarities, although I know people do like to look for them. It was not unusual for Kings or leaders to believe they were divine - after all, if you have supreme power, where else to you go? And we don't know if he really thought he was divine, or used it a propaganda. If you look hard enough you can see similarities in lots of things - both their stories include fish references, they both had groups of companions, they both had mothers...I don't think Jesus set one of his servants on fire, or Alexander raise someone from the dead.. I am sure it is the 33 death date which first starts people thinking, and also those lovely pictures of Jesus as blonde and blue-eyed.I really don't think Alexander wanted to be anyone but himself. When he said (paraphrasing) that he would be Diogenes if he wasn't Alexander, I understood this to be a reprimand to his followers who laughed at Diogenes. He was stamping the Alexander seal of approval on Diogenes - he did the same to Hephaestion. He named cities after himself. The Achilles thing is a story from when he was young. Didn't you want to be Batman, or Wonderwoman? Identification with a superhero is not really a sign of wanting another identity - more that you aspire to their characteristics, I think.LindaPS I think Marcus is jealous of Hephaestion being Alexander's best friend

[wmp]

Or not even, perhaps, as a fertility symbol (see
RL Green's comments on the Lion of
Hamadan...)
wmp(I think the red wine in question this time was a
xynomavro from naoussa...)

[marcus]

Hi Linda,"It was not unusual for kings and leaders to believe they were divine" - indeed, every Roman emperor, for a start! It was only a small step down from that to the whole concept of the divine right of kings - the fact that they had been appointed by God and therefore were inviolable, which, as we know, was proved disastrously wrong as far as Charles I was concerned (actually, and Edward II and Richard II and Richard III, for that matter!).Of course, the similarity with Jesus flounders rather in the fact that he wasn't a king...All the bestMarcusPS: I don't begrudge Alexander having other friends, Linda. So long as he keeps me on his Christmas Card list and very occasionally invites me out on one of his drinking sprees

[susa]

A hunter needs game, no?:)But there's no proof that that lion in Hamadan was for Hep. Maybe not.Give some of yr Xynomavro wine to Green, will you plz? He will surely improve his reasoning. 'fertility symbol' - gotta be joking.
susa

[John]

Somehow I don't think the bum thing would have went over too well with Olympias, though. Would you have the courage to tell her?Picture the wicked witch of the west, pointing at her hourglass. "You have THIS long to put him back into his right mind!"Speaking of witch, is it odd that she was confronted by Alexander's three worst enemies? The cowardly lion (Darius, who feigned courage, then ran away in his battles); the scarecrow (Bessus, with his nose and ears hacked off); the tin man (Iolas, who poisoned Alexander)... Oil? Iolas wants oil? Go back to Babylon, Iraq. War for oil. Hey, where's Toto? Bush's little black dog?Yeah, you (instead of "W") play Dorothy, and confront the queen in her castle.(I plead "red wine and anasthetic" for this post. Seriously, "wmp?")John

[jan]

I like your comments about his reason for using Diogenes as you say that he did, to reprimand those who were making fun of Diogenes for his strange behaviour. Such the lot of eccentrics!My suspicion is that Alexander and his exploits had had quite an impact on the folklore of the known world, and that Jesus is in response to those tales, having to do greater and more important things than merely to conquer a world. Jesus said that his kingdom is of the next world, not that immediate world. He was speaking of spirituality.As Alexander did have to prove himself to be Divine, by having the oracle give his stamp of approval to Olympia's (Myrtale) belief, he alternately accepted his Divine status of immortality as well as his mortality (sexual appetite and blood coloration).The truth is that both the tales of Alexander live today as do the stories of Jesus. I believe that each is worth understanding and knowing for today's children.

[John]

Just reading from The Wizard of OZ...I have often wondered who ever got it worse than Bessus - not Jesus, since he was mereley crucified. Bessus was crucified AFTER having his nose and ears hacked off (and whatever else they did to him).But now I've found someone: the tin man from The Wizard of OZ! It seems he was chopping some firewood for his house and new wife, when his "enchanted axe" hacked off his left leg. So he had it replaced with a tin one. Then the axe hacked off his right leg; next his arms; even his head. The wicked witch, however, still wasn't satisfied, so she jumped out from behind the bushes, grabbed the axe herself, and chopped what was left of his body in half. So it was he had no "meat" left and was only hollow tin.Anyway, I know when Olympias found out that Iolas poisoned Alexander, she overturned his tomb and scattered his ashes to the wind. But does anyone know how Iolas died? I can't seem to find that information anywhere....Sometimes I wonder about the power of real witches, maybe pulling strings behind the scenes? Anyway, I'm closer to understanding why some Christian groups have tried to get this Wizard of OZ book banned. And don't tell me, Janet ("Jet Fuel"), you were born the same year the Wizard of OZ movie came out. Blah blah blah...John

[marcus]

One of the things that kept me interested while I was studying for my degree was the descriptions of some of the nasty things the Assyrians used to do to their enemies. No doubt the Persians didn't learn everything they knew from the Assyrians, but perhaps it was something in the Tigris waters that made the Mesopotamians so darned nasty to each other. It was true psychological warfare, and it makes one wonder why anyone ever rebelled against those in charge.All the bestMarcus

[John]

You've reminded me of how Saddam Hussein gets 99.99% (or is it up to 100% now?) of the vote. From what I understand the ballot has only one name: Saddam Hussein, with a Yes box and a No box. You choose whichever box you want, always keeping in mind, of course, that your address is included on the ballot. Hmmm.John

[susa]

So tell me something about the american poll, yes? Posing 'democratical' and being quite the opposite. Mr. Hussein is only ONE among MANY. He is NOT alone.i

[John]

OK Here's something about the last US election: more people in the US voted for Al Gore than George Bush, but, due to this and that, Bush became president.... Can't you just feel the forum moderators breathing down our necks?John

[susa]

Nope. Can you? Ah well, my boss is the one who will be breathing my neck down if i don't come back to my duties!:)

[ruthaki]

I have read a few varying reports on Iolas's death. One that he died of fever in Babylon. Secondly (perhaps a Renault theory shared by me) that he was killed (by Kassandros) to keep him quiet about mixing the tainted water with the wine. That's the theory I use in my historical fiction novel. Whatever...he had a tomb of memorial in Macedon and Olympias desecrated it as soon as she got the opporunity as well as seeing that 100 members of Antipater's clan were killed. Vengeance for her son's death.