Olympias and Eurydice

[Xenophon]

Alexias wrote:

There is just time for Cleopatra to have borne two children. Diodorus says she had given birth a few days before Philip's death. That gives a conception date of January 336 BC, perhaps 6 weeks after she could have given birth in DEcember 337 BC, putting the wedding in March 337 BC.

While just about possible, this is unlikely in the extreme. For a woman not lactating or breast-feeding, fertility can in some cases return a few weeks after giving birth, but for most women it takes several months, and 14 months for the menstrual cycle to return to normal.

For a woman lactating or breastfeeding, this acts as a 98% effective contraceptive for up to 6 months. After 6 months, or after a woman has had her first period since giving birth ( usually several months after - see above), breastfeeding can no longer be relied on as a contraceptive......

As Paralus says,she would have to have been incredibly fertile, and the probability is extremely low, especially if, as seems likely, she was lactating or breast-feeding.....

[Alexias]

Hi Xenophon,

Yes, I agree it is unlikely that Cleopatra gave birth to 2 children within the space of 10 or 11 months but it is possible and I have known it to happen. It does bring an increased risk of haemorrhage.

Of more significance though is the fact that within the period of Philip returning to Greece and Attalus leaving for Asia, Philip would have had to have met Cleopatra (either at a suitable social occasion or Attalus's house if he had the time to stay with him), fallen in love with her, decided to marry her, and arranged a wedding. Women ancient and modern want more than 5 minutes to prepare for a wedding. I would have thought Philip is unlikely to have met and fallen in love with her before he left for Greece the previous summer and then waited 5 or 6 months to marry her. Is it possible that the wedding took place in the autumn when Attalus might have returned briefly?

[marcus]

Hi Xenophon,

Yes, I agree it is unlikely that Cleopatra gave birth to 2 children within the space of 10 or 11 months but it is possible and I have known it to happen. It does bring an increased risk of haemorrhage.

Of more significance though is the fact that within the period of Philip returning to Greece and Attalus leaving for Asia, Philip would have had to have met Cleopatra (either at a suitable social occasion or Attalus's house if he had the time to stay with him), fallen in love with her, decided to marry her, and arranged a wedding. Women ancient and modern want more than 5 minutes to prepare for a wedding. I would have thought Philip is unlikely to have met and fallen in love with her before he left for Greece the previous summer and then waited 5 or 6 months to marry her. Is it possible that the wedding took place in the autumn when Attalus might have returned briefly?

That pre-supposes that Philip married her for love. Or, rather, that he fell in love with her before marrying her. The fact that she was young and of child-bearing age could well have been enough for him to contract the marriage without ever having met her. If he had already decided that he wanted to cement a political relationship with Attalus, the whole thing could have been arranged at a distance. Anyway, he might have met Cleopatra a number of times before deciding to marry her, at any time that Attalus came to court. Even if she were too young to marry on previous meetings, Philip would have remembered that she existed, and when the time came when she was old enough, made the decision to apply for her hand.

[Alexias]

That pre-supposes that Philip married her for love. Or, rather, that he fell in love with her before marrying her. The fact that she was young and of child-bearing age could well have been enough for him to contract the marriage without ever having met her. If he had already decided that he wanted to cement a political relationship with Attalus, the whole thing could have been arranged at a distance. Anyway, he might have met Cleopatra a number of times before deciding to marry her, at any time that Attalus came to court. Even if she were too young to marry on previous meetings, Philip would have remembered that she existed, and when the time came when she was old enough, made the decision to apply for her hand.

True, but I thought the whole point was that he had fallen madly in love with her? Faced with Alexander's success at Chaeronea it might have been a mid-life crisis and an attempt to recapture his youth.

Although, if I remember correctly, he married Amyntas to his daughter Kynna in Spring 337 too so politics may have played a part in his choice.

Faced with both these marriages, and not being selected to go with the advance guard to Asia after he'd proven himself the previous summer, is it any wonder Alexander felt insecure?

[marcus]

True, but I thought the whole point was that he had fallen madly in love with her? Faced with Alexander's success at Chaeronea it might have been a mid-life crisis and an attempt to recapture his youth.

Although, if I remember correctly, he married Amyntas to his daughter Kynna in Spring 337 too so politics may have played a part in his choice.

Faced with both these marriages, and not being selected to go with the advance guard to Asia after he'd proven himself the previous summer, is it any wonder Alexander felt insecure?

Well, Athenaeus says he had fallen madly in love with her (13.557.b-e), as does Plutarch (Alexander 9.4). He might have done, but then again the fact that two sources say so doesn't mean that it's true, nor that Philip had spent ages courting her if it is. It was said that Alexander married Roxane for love, too, yet his was a whirlwind romance, and he married her for good political reasons as well.

ATB