Delos13 on 'Alexander's Army' found this head of Hephaestion:
Heph1.jpg (146.54 KiB) Viewed 7904 times
delos13 wrote:
Here is the first piece. "Other antiquities from the Price collection did well. A carved marble head of Hephaestion that dated from the late fourth early third century B.C. sold for $47,200." The full article can be found here http://acn.liveauctioneers.com/index.ph ... k-auctions
Browsing through the action website, I found this info and images.
It is a remarkable sculpture. I believe it was named "Hephaestion" due to its relative resemblance to the Getty Museum head (which was thusly named for simply being discovered along with Alexander's head)
It cannot be easily identifyed with any historical figure. One cannot judge from a photo but the style seems to be of the 2nd century AD but it almost surely depicts a prototype of the end of the 4th century BC and beginning of the 3rd century BC era. If one follows the simple hypothesis of the Getty sculpture then yes there is a good chance for it being a portrait of Hephaestion because the two have similarities with one another.
The collection owners almost never do they reveal the actual origin of their collectibles because they are often products of illegal trade and even if they do they are always vague about it. This is a great wound to the sciences of history and archaelogy whith great reprecrussions that are not immediately observable.
I am not new to the forum, but been away for a long time.
There is something that I wanted to understand, which would be: How is it identified, in general, the heads of Alexander? I mean, archaeologists/treasure hunters from the past dug up one head, and how is it that that they say it is (or possibly is) Alexander's head? Is it because of the places they are found, or any special feature...? Like 'handsome, with flowing hair'...?
Thanks!
Susa
Come live forever with me, or transpire / a flame alone on a funeral pire / We'll build an empire if we so desire, travel the world, and set it on fire.
Except for the rare occaisions where the piece is named (as with 'The Azara Herm) then it does generally come down to 'anastole, tilted neck and long hair' ; this does lead to many non-Alexanders being identified as Alexander. Nor is this a modern phenomenon, ancient dealers were more likely to make a sale in Rome of, say 'Plato', than 'anonymous man with beard'!
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
Susa the Great wrote:
There is something that I wanted to understand, which would be: How is it identified, in general, the heads of Alexander? I mean, archaeologists/treasure hunters from the past dug up one head, and how is it that that they say it is (or possibly is) Alexander's head? Is it because of the places they are found, or any special feature...? Like 'handsome, with flowing hair'...?
Susa
Agesilaos quotes the literal sources data that are a standard when it comes to Alexander sculpture heads and of course the Azara herm is the only inscribed source we have that helps us identify them. In addition there are coins depicting Alexander from the side of course but they do give a certain idea about his morph. He can be easily recognised as he is unique. No one before Alexander was depicted with hair with "anastole" and without a beard.
We expect to find sculptures and heads of Alexander in ancient holy places, acropolis and sanctuaries because even when he was still alive he became a God.
Oddly enough there are not as many a depiction of Alexander from the ancient Greek and Roman Times if you take into account his fame which was really enormous. There is always the possibility of vast ammounts of such artifacts getting destroyed by christian peoples later on. Let me added that later visitors in Greece (18th- 19th century) performed brutal attacks against sculptures - I remember a case of a known visitor who recorded in his journal that he destroyed hundreds incriptions and sculptures in Sparta because he did not have time to report their existence and having them destroyed was a better option than leaving them for other to find apparrently!!
It is a remarkable sculpture. I believe it was named "Hephaestion" due to its relative resemblance to the Getty Museum head (which was thusly named for simply being discovered along with Alexander's head)
This bronze sculpture is also often referred to as depicting Hephaistion.
I don't know who identified it as Hephaistion, or why and I'm not even sure it's owned by the Prado, as everyone seems to think. It's not listed in their on-line catalogue and given that it would be the best preserved likeness in the world, that seems rather odd.
In either case, the two works of art don't depict the same man. It's one or the other.
Personally, I know which one I prefer.
Chris.
All men by nature desire understanding. Aristotle.
I don't know who identified it as Hephaistion, or why and I'm not even sure it's owned by the Prado, as everyone seems to think. It's not listed in their on-line catalogue and given that it would be the best preserved likeness in the world, that seems rather odd.
In either case, the two works of art don't depict the same man. It's one or the other.
Personally, I know which one I prefer.
Chris.
I ought to perhaps point out that that picture is one I created messing about with Photoshop and that the original bronze is damaged.
The Prado bronze has only been identified as Hephaestion in the last 10 years or so. The first time I came across it was in Michael Wood's book accompanying the 'In the Footsteps...' television series. Prior to that, all the heads identified as Hephaestion looked like the top photo. Similarly, I don't know what the reasons for identifying the bronze as Hephaestion are. It certainly looks like someone you wouldn't want to mess with however.
Alexias wrote:I ought to perhaps point out that that picture is one I created messing about with Photoshop and that the original bronze is damaged. The Prado bronze has only been identified as Hephaestion in the last 10 years or so.
You certainly did a very good job. Did you see the original in the Prado? I'd love to know more about it.
Alexias wrote:It certainly looks like someone you wouldn't want to mess with however.
It was one of my favourite sculptures and I was rather taken aback when I read that it was meant to be Hephaistion.
I own a cast of the Alexander head from the British Museum. I can't imagine the Getty marble beside it, but the bronze head would be a perfect match.
chris.
All men by nature desire understanding. Aristotle.
agesilaos wrote:..... Nor is this a modern phenomenon, ancient dealers were more likely to make a sale in Rome of, say 'Plato', than 'anonymous man with beard'!
Hello!
Well people never really change!
Thanks for your clarification.
Susa
Come live forever with me, or transpire / a flame alone on a funeral pire / We'll build an empire if we so desire, travel the world, and set it on fire.
system1988 wrote:
Agesilaos quotes the literal sources data that are a standard when it comes to Alexander sculpture heads and of course the Azara herm is the only inscribed source we have that helps us identify them. In addition there are coins depicting Alexander from the side of course but they do give a certain idea about his morph. He can be easily recognised as he is unique. No one before Alexander was depicted with hair with "anastole" and without a beard.
We expect to find sculptures and heads of Alexander in ancient holy places, acropolis and sanctuaries because even when he was still alive he became a God.
Oddly enough there are not as many a depiction of Alexander from the ancient Greek and Roman Times if you take into account his fame which was really enormous. There is always the possibility of vast ammounts of such artifacts getting destroyed by christian peoples later on. Let me added that later visitors in Greece (18th- 19th century) performed brutal attacks against sculptures - I remember a case of a known visitor who recorded in his journal that he destroyed hundreds incriptions and sculptures in Sparta because he did not have time to report their existence and having them destroyed was a better option than leaving them for other to find apparrently!!
Hello!
OK, the 'no beard thing', and his haircut.
Thanks for the information.
"If this cannot be mine, this cannot belong to anyone" is pretty nasty, is it not! Very sorry to hear that. I am a museum conservator, and the thought of such a thing as destroying the products of history is mind boggling. Who can imagine that conoisseurs (posing) would do such a thing!
Come live forever with me, or transpire / a flame alone on a funeral pire / We'll build an empire if we so desire, travel the world, and set it on fire.
Alcibiades was depicted clean shave with anastole and wild hair too, (from a named Roman copy, pictured on a thread here somewhere); the head of Lysimachos from Ephesos-Gocek looks more like Alexander to me, my avatar is meant to be Lysimachos; it is all quite subjective.
Yes, wanton destruction is terrible and not confined to us Europeans; Mohammed Ali (not the boxer) was grinding up Egyptian monuments for lime and hard-core and Memmius famously melted down the statues of Korinth for scrap! An act even the Romans deplored, though on the sound capitalist argument that they were worth more as art! Plus ca change, les choses restes le meme
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
agesilaos wrote:Alcibiades was depicted clean shave with anastole and wild hair too, (from a named Roman copy, pictured on a thread here somewhere); the head of Lysimachos from Ephesos-Gocek looks more like Alexander to me, my avatar is meant to be Lysimachos; it is all quite subjective.
I'm not sure about "subjective". Expert are very good at analysis, but when it comes to synthesis, they sometimes seem to get lost in the maze of their data. And when comes to synthesising millions of data points to identify a human face, an average human brain is faster and more accurate than anything else on this planet, including archeologists.
The head of Lysimachos at Ephesos is Alexander.
Chris.
All men by nature desire understanding. Aristotle.
chris_taylor wrote:The head of Lysimachos at Ephesos is Alexander.
I love a bit of polemic, Chris!
I must say, when I first glimpsed that head of Lysimachos, I said to myself "Oh, an Alexander"; but I wasn't surprised to see it named for Lysimachos. Lack of anastole, and shorter hair, you see. I admit that the head tilt is very similar; but we know that the successors (and others) often modelled themselves on Alexander.
I don't think we could say with the certainty that you profess, that the sculpture was mis-attributed!
For those who want to see it:
Head of Lysimachos, Ephesus Museum
2011 Turkey 1229small.JPG (83.21 KiB) Viewed 7737 times
Just for comparison sake, this is a cast of a head of Attalos I, king of Pergamon 230-198 BC. Even 100 years later it still has recognisable Alexander characteristics.
DSCI2910---Copy.jpg (128.58 KiB) Viewed 7731 times
chris_taylor wrote:
You certainly did a very good job. Did you see the original in the Prado? I'd love to know more about it.
chris.
Thank you. Unfortunately no, but the slightly odd thing about this head is that there does not appear to be any sign of a neck. Even broken, you would expect some sign of a neck, unless it's been removed. So how was the head originally displayed, and what was its purpose if it was not part of a bust or statue?
chris_taylor wrote:
I own a cast of the Alexander head from the British Museum. I can't imagine the Getty marble beside it, but the bronze head would be a perfect match.
agesilaos wrote:Alcibiades was depicted clean shave with anastole and wild hair too, (from a named Roman copy, pictured on a thread here somewhere); the head of Lysimachos from Ephesos-Gocek looks more like Alexander to me, my avatar is meant to be Lysimachos; it is all quite subjective.
Yes, wanton destruction is terrible and not confined to us Europeans; Mohammed Ali (not the boxer) was grinding up Egyptian monuments for lime and hard-core and Memmius famously melted down the statues of Korinth for scrap! An act even the Romans deplored, though on the sound capitalist argument that they were worth more as art! Plus ca change, les choses restes le meme
C'est vrai, c' est vrai...
And I think that interests and priorities change... So there.
Uh, that's a pity for us now.
Come live forever with me, or transpire / a flame alone on a funeral pire / We'll build an empire if we so desire, travel the world, and set it on fire.
