Darius the Great

[dean]

Hello,

Just came across this- about Persian History- focusing on Darius the great.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/radio4choice.shtml

Best regards,
Dean

[dean]

Hello,

Sorry folks, I didn't realise that the page was updated every week according to the latest broadcast so sorry folks if you can't get the programme up with the previous link. Now all you will get is a boring broadcast about Guantanamo.

The Darius the great programme itself was presented by Tom Holland, his voice sounded very familiar and he has a few books doing the rounds about the fall of Rome or some other similiar title.
Either way, he gave a pretty good presentation regarding Darius- with several experts portraying as an "usurper". I mean of course Darius I going through how the Persian empire was "united" and also mentioning about the Zorastrian religion. How there are two equal forces good evil. As opposed to the Christian one, where evil is subordinate to good.

There was also a mention of Cyrus and Persepolis. Unfortunately and surprisingly, not once did they mention the name of Alexander.

Dean

[marcus]

There was also a mention of Cyrus and Persepolis. Unfortunately and surprisingly, not once did they mention the name of Alexander.

Hi Dean,

Yes, Radio 4 is doing a series of programmes on Iran at the moment. Tom Holland has a book out called "Persian Fire", which is about the Persian Wars of 490 and 480/79.

I'm not really surprised that Alexander wasn't mentioned - if the programme was about Darius the Great, or even about Cyrus, then it pre-dates Alexander by at least 150 years. Much as I crave for anything to do with Alexander, I can't expect him to crop up *every* time there's a mention of Persia/Iran!

ATB

[Madog]

It is a shame that the link has changed, I would have liked to have seen the interview. Tom Holland is a good writer, he should do a book about Alexander- although I have heard that he is moving away from the Classical world in his next book and writing up on the Middle Ages.

[Paralus]

Indeed Tom Holland is a gifted writer. Rubicon is well worth the time as is Persian Fire - if a little outside the confines of this forum. The writing is very narrative based and includes several "Greenistic" flourishes (the description of the dangers of night soil buckets combined with confined Roman alleyways comes to mind - as does the 80,000 slit throats at the beginning of the Mithradatic rebellion).

Actually, while we're off-topic here, that inveterate rower, Barry Strauss, penned a fascinating work on Salamis a year or so back. It too is well worth a squizz.

The History Channel or Natgeo are well overdue a piece on Persia. Surprisingly, there is much history outside the decade and a half that Alexander strode the stage.

Darius – although related by blood – was indeed a usurper having committed regicide and murdered Bardiya, the successor of Cyrus. He was not ignorant of propaganda either as the Behistun inscription clearly shows. Whether he actually was a believer in Zoroastrianism or not, Darius had no qualms about appropriating it for his purposes. Declaring that he was a true follower of "the Light", he made safe the empire and saved it from "The Lie". One is, of course, left to assume that Bardiya, the rightful successor to Cyrus, was a follower of "The Lie". It is an often used symbol with Darius; the eternal fires were to be kept lit by the true King thus keeping out the dark and preserving the empire from The Lie. It was reason for war: one must, of course, smite the followers of the Lie. These included Scythes and rebellious Ionian Greeks.

I agree with Marcus, it is entirely unsurprising that Alexander did not rate a mention. The mainland Greeks and Macedonia meant nothing at all to the Persians until the closing years of the sixth century. Even then I doubt that he took much notice – he had much within the empire to garner his attention. The story retailed by Herodotus may well be true – just not in the manner he thought. The King most likely needed someone to remind who the hell these "Athenians" were.

The destruction of Persepolis was an utter tradgedy. It remains unknown what else might have reposed there which may have shed light on this culture and its history.

I have re-written history
With my armies and my crooks
Invented memories
I did burn all the books

Thank you, Mark Knopfler.

[smittysmitty]

I do beleive that the mention of Zoroaster does not appear during the Achaemenid period. It is not untill the second of third century A.D that Zoroaster is connected to the Achaemenids. Although many Orientalists like to make a connection between Zoroastrianism and the reign of the Achaemeinds, the religiosity of the Achaemenids is not so clear - as is the case with most religions in antiquity.

[amyntoros]

A really good site on Zoroastrianism is to be found at Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies. In the third article listed, The Achaemenians, Zoroastrians in Transition it says:

There have been a number of arguments that the Achaemenians were not Zoroastrians and that like their kin Iranian Medians, they followed a school of Indo-Iranian beliefs and practices. Their bas-reliefs do not ever mention Zarathushtra, they do not call themselves Mazdayasni, they worshiped gods of other nations, and a few more points.

but ends with:

The picture that emerges from the above, indicates that the earlier Achaemenians were more Gathic in their beliefs and practices than their successors, and that with the passage of time and the increasing contacts and mingling with Iranians of the Later Avestan background, they turned more and more to an evolving form of the Institutionalized Zoroastrianism that had its culmination during the Sasanian period (224-652 CE). The gradual clouding of the pristine purity of the Divine Doctrine of the Gathas by pre- and post-Gathic beliefs and practices began during the melting period of the Achaemenians.

Lots more to read on this site . . .

Best regards,

[dean]

Hi Amytoros,

Was reading the links regarding Zoroastrianism and found an interesting link, with computer generated images of how Persepolis would have looked like.

There are images of Darius' palace, the apadana, and of reliefs that are simply breathtaking-

http://www.persepolis3d.com/data_frameset/main_16.htm

The one of the lion attacking the antelope is especially beautiful.

Must admit that the contention that Zoroastriansim didn't come into the Achaemedian picture until Darius the third's time is interesting and uproots a belief I had held for some time.

With regard to Zarathustra this excerpt from the link you provided is interesting.

INFLUENCE ON OTHER RELIGIONS
Scholars of comparative religion assert that the Zarathushtrian religion, which was the state religion of a dominant but tolerant empire for over 1000 years, greatly influenced the religions of its neighbors, including Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Close contact was made between Zarathushtrians and Biblical peoples when Cyrus the Great, who was a Zarathushtrian, freed the Jews from the Babylonian captivity in 539 BCE Since then and until recently, Iran has been a haven for Jews in Diaspora and for the persecuted Christian denominations.

HISTORY
Founded and taught in eastern Iran in 1768 BCE, the Zarathushtrian religion spread all over the Iranian Plateau by the 6th century BCE. It was instrumental in the founding of the world's first universal empire by the Achaemenids under Cyrus the Great in 550 BCE. The empire was not bound by linguistic or ethnic frontiers. While earlier conquests had meant the total destruction of the vanquished, the Achaemenids' tolerance was not only political, but also religious and ethnic.

When Cyrus the Great, himself a Zarathushtrian, conquered Babylon in 539 BCE, he freed all captive people, including the Jews who had remained in bondage for 70 years. He helped restore all the temples destroyed by the Babylonians. That is whey the Bible calls him the Lord's "shepherd and anointed... whose right hand I have holden..." (Isaiah 44:28 and 45:1). A description of how Cyrus helped the returning Jews to rebuild their ruined temple is found in Ezra 6:34 and 6:14-15. Cyrus was the first ruler to declare what we call today "Human Rights". Cyrus's successors Darius the Great, Artaxerxes and other great rulers are known for their respect and tollarance for different religious and racial groups. (See the Book of Esther for the story of Artaxerses [Ahasuerus] and Mordecai. Also see the Books of Chroicles II, Ezra, Nehemiah, Daniel for further references on Medes and Persians).

And as you say, there is lots more to read there.

Best regards,
Dean

[smittysmitty]

With all due respect, you need to be more critical of what you read.

What you have quoted is totaly unfounded and utter nonsense.



cheers!

[marcus]

With all due respect, you need to be more critical of what you read.

What you have quoted is totaly unfounded and utter nonsense.

To be fair, Smitty (and I'm not sure who you were aiming this at), I don't think anyone was giving any particular credence to what was quoted, merely raising it as interesting. If it requires some critical analysis then I would hope someone will do the honours ...

ATB

[amyntoros]

If it requires some critical analysis then I would hope someone will do the honours ...

Have so little time available to be online right now (and computer problems to boot), but I need to second the above. I can’t tell if something is incorrect unless I have studied it extensively - and even then we all know how much disagreement can arise on a particular subject! Anyway, I most certainly am not an authority on Zoroastriansim, making it rather difficult to be critical about a website which purports to be knowledgeable. If there’s more to be said then I’d love to hear it – preferably with sources!

Best regards,

[dean]

Hello,

The quote I chose contained a number of different ideas-

For example,

Cyrus the Great, who was a Zarathushtrian, freed the Jews from the Babylonian captivity in 539 BCE

After a little bit of reading, on a number of different sites, this info, does appear to be correct. Cyrus was viewed as a liberator. Much as Alexander was, in Egypt.

Obviously the major argument I guess you are referring to, and please note, I simply found the info as I said interesting, was to do with Zarathustra and the Cyrus.

Reading on the Livius site- there is an excellent article by Jona Lendering- although there didn’t seem to be any definitive answer as to whether or not Zoroastrianism was the religion of the Achaemenids’-
Jona quotes the Behistun inscription where Darius I mentions AhuraMazda.
Jona does say though that this doesn’t necessarily confirm that he was a Zoroastrian.

http://www.livius.org/ag-ai/ahuramazda/ahuramazda.html

Best regards,
Dean.

[amyntoros]

I’m hoping to get to some other posts later (whenever the “Mundane” part of my life allows), but in the meantime I’d like to stay on top of this very interesting thread.

I could obviously use a 101 class on the Achaemenids and Zoroastrianism – in fact, I’d love to see a Pothos page (related to Alexander, of course) written by someone with a good knowledge of the subject. I wish that Jona was still with us; I see that he has another page on his own site that refers to Zoroastrianism and Alexander where he gives his opinion as to whether Alexander destroyed the Avesta. You see, this is where it gets even more confusing: how could Alexander have been responsible for burning some or all of the Avesta (something I’ve always personally doubted as it seems so unlike him) if the Achaemenids were not practicing Zoroastrians?

Then there’s the entry on Zoroaster in Smith’s Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology. Now, I know that there is more recent scholarship to be found, but with so many different opinions shown I would be inclined to view the article on the Circle for Ancient Iranian Studies site as being just another viewpoint rather than being completely “unfounded”. I don’t understand how we could possibly know for sure, one way or the other.

Best regards,

Amyntoros

P.S. to Dean. Many thanks for the link to the site with the computer generated recreation of Persepolis. I hadn’t previously had a chance to explore the site fully and I was delighted to see these images, although I would love to see a human figure added on at least some of the images to give us a better appreciation of the scale of the construction.

[marcus]

P.S. to Dean. Many thanks for the link to the site with the computer generated recreation of Persepolis. I hadn’t previously had a chance to explore the site fully and I was delighted to see these images, although I would love to see a human figure added on at least some of the images to give us a better appreciation of the scale of the construction.

I agree totally!

One of the best things about the Ancient Persia exhibition at the British Museum last year was a CGI reconstruction of Persepolis - which included little figures strolling around. It was superb, and I was disappointed that they didn't appear to have released a CD or DVD with it on - I'm sure the gift shop would have made a fortune!

Still, I'm aiming to get to the Museum in a couple of weeks' time, when I'm on half term, and will be asking!

ATB

[Paralus]

Reading on the Livius site- there is an excellent article by Jona Lendering- although there didn’t seem to be any definitive answer as to whether or not Zoroastrianism was the religion of the Achaemenids’-
Jona quotes the Behistun inscription where Darius I mentions AhuraMazda.
Jona does say though that this doesn’t necessarily confirm that he was a Zoroastrian.

I'm not too sure there's real evidence of Zoroastrianism as any form of official religion among the early Achaeminids. These canny imperialists, in a more or less general sense, followed a policy of allowing local religions to be observed. Cyrus indeed adopted religious titles as often as they were offered. And, they were offered by the most authoritative agencies: "Marduk scanned all the countries of the world looking for a righteous ruler" and apparently come up -- surprisingly -- with Cyrus (from the "Cyrus Cylinder"). The example -- both the religious and the thirst for ever expanding conquests -- was not lost on Alexander.

Darius, having assumed the title of king over the body of Bardiya (Cyrus' son), immediatley set about his propaganda campaign. The Bisitun inscription is redolent with it. In fact, as a cover for his possible guilt in regicide, Darius' whole reason for being is to protect Persia from Drauga - "The Lie". He himself posed as Arta - "The Truth":"Thou shalt be king hereafter, protect thyself vigorously from the Lie; the man who shall be a follower of the Lie, him do thou punish well". (Bihistun inscription) We can be sure that Bardiya -- an imposter posing as Cyrus' son -- was most definitely a follower of the Lie.

Ahura Mazda, of course, created Arta.

That Darius thoroughly believed any of this or was a Zoroastrian is doubtfull. That he used it to underscore his position befroe the Iranian nobility is much less so.