Olympias and her responsibilities

[marcus]

I've started this thread largely through laziness, but I think it is an interesting topic (we'll see whether it's just me!).

We all know, of course, that while Alexander was in Asia he left Antipater in Macedonia as his regent. We also know that Olympias and Antipater appeared to clash quite often, and the queen mother complained frequently to Alexander.

BUT ... what exactly were Olympias' responsibilties in Macedon. Hammond (if I recall correctly, but probably others, too), have said that she performed a religious role, as befitted the most senior Argead (by marriage) in the kingdom. But do we know this for sure? Did she have any role in the rule of the kingdom, or were her clashes with Antipater entirely the result of the clash between regent and the blood-relative of the "feudal lord". I see an echo with Eleanor of Aquitaine, who had not official role in the rule of England while Richard I was on Crusade, and yet had a vested interest in looking after her son's interests.

I wonder whether those with the Carney book on women and monarchy can help out - and any others with views, obviously.

All the best

[dean]

Hello,
Yes I think that this is an interesting subject.

Olympias as far as being a historical character on her own- is i think one of the most fascinating.
With regards to your suggestion about Olympias' duties being religious- it would fit in a)with her stay on the island of Samos, when she met Philip and supposed interest in the mysteries associated with Dionysus b)with her commemorating Philip's death- grimly keeping the celtic knife used in his assassination.
My opinion is that she would have spent her time in the lap of luxury- probably, if we are to believe the hype, meddilng in court affairs, envious of Antipater's position and thinking all the while that she would love to be the one in power. Women in power however were not a new thing- queen Ada- of Caria is one example is this yet Olympias would probably be in the same position as the Queen today- with the government being Antipater- he took all the major decisions with regards to the kingdom, she took more of a backseat position


Best regards,
Dean.

[marcus]

Cheers, Dean.

Interesting points you make about Samos and the Celtic knife (leaving aside whether there's any truth in the second). I hadn't actually thought specifically of them, although they are, to all intents and purposes, two of the clearest indications that we have of Olympias' religiosity.

On the more 'mainstream' side, Hammond (and others) had pointed out that one of the king's duties very much appeared to be presiding over the daily sacrifices - we certainly get a very clear picture of Alexander doing this (you only have to read Arrian for that to be obvious). So, on that basis, as the senior member of the royal house left in Macedonia, the suggestion goes that Olympias would have been responsible for the daily sacrifices. I wonder whether this annoyed Antipater, who perhaps felt that he, as regent, should take that role.

Then, alongside your comment about her living in luxury, but wanting to take more of a hand in the government - exactly. This is where my correlation with Eleanor of Aquitaine comes in - no official position, but too powerful to ignore when she starts meddling ... leading to all sorts of accusations and recriminations.

But do we know for a fact what she was or wasn't entitled to do?

Cheers

[heraklia]

Hmmm . . . I really have a strong impression that Olympias was one of those women to whom intrigue was life, and who was probably constantly trying to work around Philip to get her way during his life - and trying to work around Antipas after his death. I'm not sure that she would have been given any duties at all, other than being "the mother of Alexander," and I don't remember reading anything about her having OFFICIAL religious duties. In fact, au contraire.

I'm prejudiced against Olympias because of the utter ruthlessness she showed when she finally murdered Philip Arrhidheus and his wife after Alexander's death, and a general sense that she was a woman driven far more by passion than by intellect. But perhaps most of all, I'm prejudiced against her because, after Alexander became the Great King, he never invited her to come to his court, even though poor ol' Philip A. was obviously there (since he was at the time Alexander died). It seems to me that Olympias was someone Alexander wanted to love from as far off as possible.

[ruthaki]

She met Philip on the island of Samothraki. All the Macedonian kings had a connection there and anyone could be initiated into the rites (even foreigners). I have never heard of her keeping the Celitic knife. That sounds like myth but an interesting one for a historical fiction writer like me.

After Alexander was gone and she quarreld with Antipater she returned to Dodoni and after Alexander's death she took charge of Kleopata's children when Kleo went off to try and marry Perdikkas. Remember, she was royalty from Epiros before she married Philip.

Probably Alexander didn't want her in Babylon considering he had another one like her (Roxana) on his hands. He did send her many gifts apparantly and exchanged letters frequently.

She is a most powerful, interesting often maligned woman in history. A lot of what was said about her was propoganda designed against her. It wasn't 'proven' she had a hand in Philip's assassination and when she killed Eurydike and Philip Arridaios it was because they were conspiring again Alexander's dynasty along with Kassandros. Poor Arridaios was an unfortunate victim, but Eurydike was just about as ambitious and vicious as Olympias.

[dean]

Hello ruthaki,

The detail is in Justin.
"Olympias put a crown of gold, the same night that she arrived on the head of Pausanias, as he was hanging on a cross. A few days after, she burnt the body of the assassin, when it had been taken down upon the remains of her husband and made him a tomb in the same place- she also provided that yearly sacrifices should be performed to his manes(spirit), possessing the people with a superstitious notion for the purpose....
Last of all she concecrated the sword or dagger with which the king had been killed, to Apollo, under the name of Myrtale which was Olympias' own name when a child...."
Italics mine.
(9.7.10-14)

Best regards,
Dean.

[ruthaki]

Wow Dean, that's fascinating. Thanks for the quote etc. I've done a lot of research on Olympias but never seen that particular excerpt. One interesting piece of research I have is a magazine article (in Greek) in which they discuss the Madonna aspect of Olympias, her claim to the 'virgin birth' by her visitation from the God that conceived Alexander. I wish I had it translated and written down as it was quite a fascinating concept. I also read some things about her connection to the deposed pharaoh Nectanebo and I'll check my notes for the references to it.

One story I read about her (and it might have been in the translation of that Greek article) was that when she was very little she was upset because her mother hadn't dipped her into the Styx like Achille's mother had. This is probably a fantasy but it certainly fits her character.

I have visited Olympias's sites, both near where she was born, Dodoni, and Pynda where she died. The day I was in Pydna the archaeologists working on the site, searching for her tomb, actually, talked at length with me so it was quite an inspiring experience. I went to the place where she was most likely stoned to death, and from there you could clearly see Mt. Olympus, and I imagined as she died that she might have looked up there, willing herself to join the gods on the mountain. (I've also been to Samothraki on two occasions, to the Sanctuary of the Great Gods where she first met Philip.)

[amyntoros]

I'm not sure that she would have been given any duties at all, other than being "the mother of Alexander," and I don't remember reading anything about her having OFFICIAL religious duties. In fact, au contraire.

There's little enough to find on Olympias in the sources, but there is some small evidence that can be interpreted as official duties. When she complained to the Athenians about their embellishment of a statue of Zeus of Dodona she was acting in an official capacity - one that disturbed the Athenians greatly! She may have claimed that the region of Molossia where the temple stands belonged to her, but it was her status in Macedonia that caused the Athenians to pay attention to her complaints. My opinion anyway.

Hyperides - On Behalf of Euxenippus.
(24) Olympias has made complaints about the Dodona affair, unfair ones at that, as I have already proven twice to her envoys in the Assembly in your presence and in the presence of the other Athenians, showing that the complaints she brought against our city were inappropriate. For Zeus of Dodona commanded you by his oracle to embellish the statue of Dione. (25) You had the face and all the other parts near it sculptured in the finest manner possible, and provided the goddess with very expensive decorations, and dispatched state envoys with an expensive sacrifice; in this way you embellished the statue of Dione and did credit to yourselves and the goddess. You received complaints about these activities from Olympias in the letters in which she claimed that the region of Molossia where the temple stands belongs to her, and consequently we had no right to meddle with anything there.

[marcus]

Hi Ruth -

The business with Nectanebo is in the Alexander Romance. Clearly a fabrication, and it is one of the things that points to the earliest version of the Romance being written in Egypt (assume Alexandria).

ATB

[ruthaki]

Actually I've read references to Nectanabo's supposed Rasputin-like power over Olympias in various texts (not romances) and one in particular had quite a lot. It was, I believe in a book loaned to me by a classical scholar friend titled :
MAGIKA HIERA: Ancient Greek Magic and Religion. Edited by Christopher A. Faraone, Dirk Obbink
And in reference to magic and binding spells etc it quoted some parts of a text called "Historia Alexandre Magni (Ps-Gallisthenes ch 1 p 3f) "Nektanebos" : M Pieper.
There was also some interesting stuff under "erotic therapy" and Nectanabos meeting Olypmias. Whether true or not, there was some connection between the deposed pharoah and Olympias otherwise why did Alexander bother to seek out his grave site while in Egypt and later have his sarcophagus moved from Memphis (?) to Alexandria.

[marcus]

Hi Ruth,

And in reference to magic and binding spells etc it quoted some parts of a text called "Historia Alexandre Magni (Ps-Gallisthenes ch 1 p 3f) "Nektanebos" : M Pieper.

That is the Alexander Romance, Ruth. Obviously, Nectanebo/Olympias do crop up in modern books, and academic books, too - but references like that on in the Greek Magic book, will be using it as a source for our knowledge of magic in the Greek world, not as a historical source for Olympias.

Whether true or not, there was some connection between the deposed pharoah and Olympias otherwise why did Alexander bother to seek out his grave site while in Egypt and later have his sarcophagus moved from Memphis (?) to Alexandria.

There's nothing in the 'proper' sources for Alexander that mention him looking out Nactanebo's grave, or moving his sarcophagus to Alexandria. The sarcophagus was probably moved during the Ptolemaic period - possibly even by Ptolemy I. There is a suggestion that it was moved because Alexander's body was in it (Andrew Chugg's your man for that).

Even if Alexander did search out the tomb, it was because Nectanebo was the last native Pharaoh of Egypt, and therefore had a great symbolic value (that is why he was introduced into the Alexander Romance, too), not because he had any form of relationship with Alexander's mother.

ATB

[amyntoros]

Thought this would be a good time to remind everyone about Elizabeth Carney's new book on Olympias. It won't be published in the US until June, although Amazon is taking preorders. However, I've just discovered that the book is already out in England! Think it's quite unfair that we have to wait longer than our British friends, once again, but sulking won't do me any good.

Here's the editorial review from Amazon:

Modern conventional wisdom knows Olympias as a pitiless and savage woman, practitioner of barbaric Dionysian rites compelled by jealousy and ruthless ambition to the murder of her rivals in order to secure her son's succession to the throne of Macedon. In this way she is credited for Alexander the Great's unprecedented achievements-yet the scale of her son's epic story has obscured her own.
Such critical accounts of Olympias' actions have made unforgiving and often unfounded judgments of her motivations. This myth however originates from later Hellenic texts, to which her strength and tenacity represented an abhorrent contradiction to contemporary gender roles. Later historians have all too often perpetrated this ancient sexual stereotyping by failing to question these sources.
In this, the first modern biography of Olympias, Elizabeth Carney penetrates myth, fictional and sexual politics to reveal a fascinating and wholly misunderstood figure. Through a close and critical assessment of the sources, Olympias is humanized as she is placed in the context ofhen own brutal political world.
Looking separately at:
-+ The role of Greek religion in Olympias' life,
-+ Literary and artistic traditions about Olympias found throughout the later ancient periods, and
-+ Varying representations of Olypias found in the major ancient sources
This book will be the definitive guide to the life of the first woman to play a major role in Greek political history as well as a compelling read for students, scholars and anyone with an interest in Greek, Classical or women's history.

If you are thinking of purchasing the book, the following two links should take you directly to the Amazon site in each country, and Pothos will get a small percentage of the sale price. The first link is for Amazon UK and the second for the US.

Olympias (Women of the Ancient World S.) by Elizabeth Carney (amazon.co.uk)

Olympias: Mother of Alexander the Great, by Elizabeth Carney (amazon.com)

Best regards,