Mentor

[marcus]

Yes, but ...1. We don't know how much Alexander was "setting a trap" for Callisthenes - although it was a convenient way of alienating Callisthenes from the Macedonians, so that when the time came he didn't have the support he would have needed to save him. But we simply don't know how premeditated this was.2. Aristotle's comment about Callisthenes was not, so far as any evidence exists, said post-execution, nor specifically in relation to that rhetorical exercise. It is unclear in Plutarch when Aristotle is supposed to have said this.So what you say is one, perfectly reasonable interpretation of the events; but I would say that there is nothing to suggest that Aristotle (a) knew that Alexander was planning to get rid of Callisthenes, or (b) had anything to do with it - not least because the speed of communications would have meant that Alexander must have been considering those actions *well* before they happened.All the bestMarcus

[jan]

HI Marcus, I will see if this works or not now, as I had trouble with it earlier. No problem, as it all depends upon the author. I don't believe that Aristotle would have had any idea that Alexander suspected that Callisthenes was plotting against him, as I don't believe that Alexander would have confided such things to Aristotle. But on this same note, what would be interesting to me would be a book on the letters that were exchanged between Aristotle and Alexander. There seem to be a lot of references in various bios about how Alexander sent fauna and other botanicals back to Aristotle. Some source had to reveal that somewhere, and most likely, it would seem to have been Callisthenes.If I happen to find the article that describes Aristotle as a father figure I will cite the sentence and author. One thing I will say here, if I can get it on, that I used the word academic for a reason, and it was a noteworthy thing to say as I had it return to me in a manner most unusual. I will only say it was through MSNBC news article.

[jan]

HI Marcus, I will see if this works or not now, as I had trouble with it earlier. No problem, as it all depends upon the author. I don't believe that Aristotle would have had any idea that Alexander suspected that Callisthenes was plotting against him, as I don't believe that Alexander would have confided such things to Aristotle. But on this same note, what would be interesting to me would be a book on the letters that were exchanged between Aristotle and Alexander. There seem to be a lot of references in various bios about how Alexander sent fauna and other botanicals back to Aristotle. Some source had to reveal that somewhere, and most likely, it would seem to have been Callisthenes.If I happen to find the article that describes Aristotle as a father figure I will cite the sentence and author. One thing I will say here, if I can get it on, that I used the word academic for a reason, and it was a noteworthy thing to say as I had it return to me in a manner most unusual. I will only say it was through MSNBC news article.

[marcus]

Hi Jan,It's Plutarch who mentions about Alexander sending back plants etc. to Aristotle, but I don't think there's anything to suggest that Callisthenes would have mentioned that in his history - he was writing a history of Alexander's conquests, so was unlikely to have bothered recording when he sent plants back to Aristotle. There might have been some mention in the Ephemerides (the Daily Journal of the court) - but it's just as likely that Aristotle published their correspondence, or when he published information on the stuff Alexander sent back he acknowledged its source (after all, if the most powerful man in the world sends you a plant cutting, you don't tend to keep it quiet).The other thing you mention is of Callisthenes plotting against Alexander ... the question is - *did* he plot against Alexander? On balance, the evidence, such as we have, seems to suggest not.All the bestMarcus

[marcus]

Hi Jan,It's Plutarch who mentions about Alexander sending back plants etc. to Aristotle, but I don't think there's anything to suggest that Callisthenes would have mentioned that in his history - he was writing a history of Alexander's conquests, so was unlikely to have bothered recording when he sent plants back to Aristotle. There might have been some mention in the Ephemerides (the Daily Journal of the court) - but it's just as likely that Aristotle published their correspondence, or when he published information on the stuff Alexander sent back he acknowledged its source (after all, if the most powerful man in the world sends you a plant cutting, you don't tend to keep it quiet).The other thing you mention is of Callisthenes plotting against Alexander ... the question is - *did* he plot against Alexander? On balance, the evidence, such as we have, seems to suggest not.All the bestMarcus

[Athanasios]

Michael,Just to clarify, whereas I think ATG was considerate of the consequences of his actions post his death, the legacy he was trying to create was not necessarily a Hellenic one. I believe he strived to immortailty (personal level) andw as an elitist. I believe he tried to promote [some] values, which were the best of both Worlds, i.e. Greek and Persian. Don't forget he came under heavy criticism for adopting certain Persian cultural inclinations.Regards,
Atha

[Athanasios]

Michael,Just to clarify, whereas I think ATG was considerate of the consequences of his actions post his death, the legacy he was trying to create was not necessarily a Hellenic one. I believe he strived to immortailty (personal level) andw as an elitist. I believe he tried to promote [some] values, which were the best of both Worlds, i.e. Greek and Persian. Don't forget he came under heavy criticism for adopting certain Persian cultural inclinations.Regards,
Atha

[Nicator]

Hello Marcus,I would agree that Callisthenes did not plot against Alexander, but would add the disclaimer that it wasn't outright plotting for which Callisthenes was impuned. He was probably guilty by association and implication. His consistent suggestions (to the Pages involved) that a tyrant's (Alexander's) downfall would be a good thing. Particularly damning words for Callisthenes occured at the trial, when the Page ran off at the mouth, regurgitating Callisthenes socio-political dogma. later Nicator

[Nicator]

Hello Marcus,I would agree that Callisthenes did not plot against Alexander, but would add the disclaimer that it wasn't outright plotting for which Callisthenes was impuned. He was probably guilty by association and implication. His consistent suggestions (to the Pages involved) that a tyrant's (Alexander's) downfall would be a good thing. Particularly damning words for Callisthenes occured at the trial, when the Page ran off at the mouth, regurgitating Callisthenes socio-political dogma. later Nicator

[Nicator]

Yaso Efstathios, Indeed I am Greek and living in America (Chicago, North side). In actuality I am only 1/4 Greek, but consider myself Greek (just an outsider though). I guess if my last name was graves (mom's maiden name) then I might consider myself English. The proportions are rougly the same, except my english heritage arrived in America with the Mayflower nearly 400 years ago, and has been watered down (or peppered up, depends on your point of view) by several native American, Irish, and German marriages along the way. Then of course, my dad with the Greek name is only half greek with the other half being Polish. Good times!later Nicator

[Nicator]

Yaso Efstathios, Indeed I am Greek and living in America (Chicago, North side). In actuality I am only 1/4 Greek, but consider myself Greek (just an outsider though). I guess if my last name was graves (mom's maiden name) then I might consider myself English. The proportions are rougly the same, except my english heritage arrived in America with the Mayflower nearly 400 years ago, and has been watered down (or peppered up, depends on your point of view) by several native American, Irish, and German marriages along the way. Then of course, my dad with the Greek name is only half greek with the other half being Polish. Good times!later Nicator

[marcus]

Well, yes ... if, of course, he did say those things. After all, the exchange, when someone asked him how to become famous, to which he answered "by killing the most famous man" (or words to that effect), is reported as being with at least 2 different people ... so how far is it true?Admittedly, it is quite possible that Callisthenes taught the Pages things that came back to haunt him - in fact, he probably did.ATBMarcus

[marcus]

Well, yes ... if, of course, he did say those things. After all, the exchange, when someone asked him how to become famous, to which he answered "by killing the most famous man" (or words to that effect), is reported as being with at least 2 different people ... so how far is it true?Admittedly, it is quite possible that Callisthenes taught the Pages things that came back to haunt him - in fact, he probably did.ATBMarcus

[amyntoros]

The same statement (of killing the most illustrious man) is also said to have been made by Hermocles to Pausanias.Valerius Maximus Book VIII. 14. ext. (3), 4 Of Appetite for Glory."Of their number perhaps Pausanias should be given first mention. For when he asked Hermocles how he could suddenly become famous and was told in reply that if he killed an illustrious man that man's glory would redound to himself, he went and slew Philip, and indeed he achieved his purpose. For he made himself as well known to posterity by the murder as Philip by his achievements."Or is that what you meant by 'reported as being with two different people'? :-)All the best,Amyntoros

[amyntoros]

The same statement (of killing the most illustrious man) is also said to have been made by Hermocles to Pausanias.Valerius Maximus Book VIII. 14. ext. (3), 4 Of Appetite for Glory."Of their number perhaps Pausanias should be given first mention. For when he asked Hermocles how he could suddenly become famous and was told in reply that if he killed an illustrious man that man's glory would redound to himself, he went and slew Philip, and indeed he achieved his purpose. For he made himself as well known to posterity by the murder as Philip by his achievements."Or is that what you meant by 'reported as being with two different people'? :-)All the best,Amyntoros