Alexander and Roxanne

[karla]

LOL!!! that's a good one!!

[X]

Or maybe he was a breeder that couldn't do the job and didn't want her to find out- old excuse

[ruthaki]

I've got all Renault's books from her first publication. Most of the early ones were a nurse theme and her first one, written in the 30's indicates her sexual preferences. I don't see where this has anything to do with her Greek stories, however. No, I'm not lesbian either even though I'm writing a play about Sappho. Ruthaki

[ruthaki]

Sappho was married and had a daughter.After her husband died. She ran a school (finishing school) for young girls, teaching them the art of love, poetry, music, dance etc to get them a higher bride price. She loved some of these girls and wrote poems about them. She also loved men, and was involved with the poet Alketas. The women of Lesbos (Mytilene) were much more advanced "feminist" than mainland Greeks and so it caused a lot of gossip to go round when Sappho became famous. Her work was destroyed mostly after Christianity came to Greece. The term "Lesbian" wasn't coined until the 1800's in reference to woman/woman love (as in Sappho's love for her girls). Today Eressos, her home town, has become a mecca for lesbians. I find it rather bizarre (having been there recently on a research trip) because really, Sappho loved men too. The story of her killing herself over Phaon the ferryman, may be legend, but if you read her final poems they are full of despair, a lot of them because she was 'growing old' (she was only 50 when she died by throwing herself off the cliff on Lefkada). Note also, she was exiled on a number of occasions because of her political activism against the tyrants. She spent a year of exile in Sicily. The political aspects of her story are just as interesting as those others. Ruthaki

[jan]

This was a fascinating discussion. The reason that Alexander married Roxanne is supposedly because he fell in love with her (she was 16) and his passion overrided his companions objections!But the other thing is that Sikander did get it correct and that is that as you noted, Karla, the use of the term Renault was to signal the gay community who became enamored with Renault. That is why I asked the question and you gave the correct answer.I also agree that gays as a group have been discriminated against, but here in America, in various bookstores, there are sections in which gay literature is clearly and boldly labeled.This forum has produced some interesting discussions and I see nothing wrong in being historically correct about an author's agenda and interest. The background of an author is the most essential part of understanding the body of work that person is undergoing.The character of Bagoas in Persian Boy seems to have been taken from Curtius, who has described Bagoas as evil and manipulative. Mary Renault then turns Bagoas into a simpering, whimpering sympathetic character who is devoted to Alexander. In reality, Curtius makes it appear that Alexander is the dupe of a Machiavellian character who convinces him that someone other than himself disturbed the tomb of Cyrus. Why it is that we are supposed to believe that the heir of Cyrus robbed the tomb is more than I can understand, but Curtius has us believing that Bagoas is guilty, that the heir is innocent, and that Alexander is a fool who sides with Bagoas. But when reading Persian Boy, Mary Renault causes us to believe that Bagoas is a more than dutiful love smitten toy for Alexander.So it is important to know that she is a lesbian, that she has a cult of lesbians who follow her, and who use her as a signal for others to gather round.You should read the biography if you can find it. It is excellent, and Mary is a very interesting and intelligent woman.I hope that Sikander is wrong and that gays are not running away from the forum. Talent is talent, regardless of the vessel's sexual proclivities.

[neneh]

I wish I'd thought of that.

[ruthaki]

I've always read Renault because I was fascinated with the way she took the old Greek stories and wrote such interesting novels. I started out with the Theseus stories, and I think I've read everything she has written. I even found a little paperback 'love' story - one of her verye early works (that one I haven't read). I read her for the quality of her work, for the way she gets into the character's heads. A person's sexual orientation has nothing whatsoever to do with their ability to write an excellent novel or tell an appealing tale.
That she happened to be a lesbian was a fact I didn't find out til much after I'd started being a fan of hers. And to me it was not relevant. Ruthaki

[S]

Greetings Jan,A few clarifications: Nothing I said supported the idea that Renaults readers can be defined by their orientation; of course she has a "following" but this does not indicate anything about the orientation of anyone reading her books.... just wanted to make certain that was understood.And while her own orientation would colour her perspective, it must also be said that not only the same would be true of any heterosexual writing, but it does not necessarily mean she got everything "wrong"!Bagoas- there may be some confusion here, as I think there is more than one Bagoas mentioned in the ancient texts.

Gays are not "running away" from the Forum; they have been made to feel unwelcome due to derogatory words being allowed- a big difference. In the opposing spirit, I think we *do* have an obligation to welcome everyone with respect and dignity who abides by the Forum rules.Regards,
Sikander

[ruthaki]

I believe there was a character named Bagoas who was the Shah's Chamberlain and a corrupt fellow. It's been awhile since I did my Persian court research but I know he's a different Bagoas than the one listed on Nearchos ship list as "Bagoas son of..." who was likely the young eunuch who Renault chose as her lead character in "The Persian Boy".
Pardon my vagueness here, because my research about the Persian court was done a long time ago and I'd have to go back into my notes to clarify this. But I am quite sure that the young Bagoas was not the same person as the Court Chamberlain who was evidently a rather evil fellow.

[marcus]

Hi Ruth,I don't think "Shah" is the correct word to use. I don't think the term was coined until the middle ages, and it was, of course, a version of "Tsar", which in itself was a version of "Caesar".All the bestMarcus

[Nicator]

LOLOL...John, you're killin' me!Later Nicator

[ruthaki]

Oops! Thanks for the correction, Marcus. You're right. By the way, on page 274 of Robin Lane Fox's book there is a paragraph about the two different Bagoas characters. He was a eunuch who had made his name as a general in Egypt. Later poisoned Darius's predecessor and made Darius king and in turn was poisoned himself. The young Bagoas was the sone of a certain Pharnuches and was probably a young court eunuch at the time Alexander came to Babylon.

[marcus]

That's OK, Ruth :-)I happen to have discovered, for what it's worth, that the Old Persian word for king is "k+¦+óyatiya".The Devil knows how you pronounce it - it will be just my luck that it ends up being pronounced "Shah", won't it? :-)All the bestMarcus

[ruthaki]

Marcus, This caused a small dilemma for me. As I am using Persian words whenever I can for the Persian speakers in my novel I have been using the term "Shah" instead of "King". I contemplated changing it now all the way through. Not too big a deal, but I liked the use of "Shah" in the language. I wonder if I can get away with it? ruthaki (those real Persian words like the one you suggested as so unpronouncable!!)

[marcus]

Oops! Sorry to give you that dilemma, Ruth.Perhaps you can continue using "Shah" and include something in your Author's Note to explain why you've chosen to use it?(After all, I do think it's a lovely word.)All the bestMarcus