Dividing The Spoils.

Recommend, or otherwise, books on Alexander (fiction or non-fiction). Promote your novel here!

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spitamenes
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Dividing The Spoils.

Post by spitamenes »

So Borders Books is shutting down. Over 200 stores across the u.s. and every one will close there doors for good very soon. So they're having a sale of course. I stumbled across this book "Dividing the Spoils, The war for Alexander the Greats Empire" by Robin Waterfield. I picked up that book, and a stack of other books, another Penguin Arrian, Xenophon, The art of War,..(again), well, too many to name I guess. But I wanted to ask if anyone has read this Dividing the Spoils book? One of my very first posts here on Pothos was a question regarding the Diodochi. Weather we knew more about them and they're individual responsibilities during Alexanders lifetime than what the main Alexander sources tell us. I haven't even scratched the surface on this one. ( I've just recently started the new Landmark Arrian and that's going to take up most of my reading time.) But I do know this book begins on the day of Alexanders death and ends when the final two original successors died. So if anyone has read this book please let me know. And maybe what to expect or what not to expect. Have a good weekend everyone!
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Re: Dividing The Spoils.

Post by marcus »

spitamenes wrote:So Borders Books is shutting down. Over 200 stores across the u.s. and every one will close there doors for good very soon. So they're having a sale of course. I stumbled across this book "Dividing the Spoils, The war for Alexander the Greats Empire" by Robin Waterfield. I picked up that book, and a stack of other books, another Penguin Arrian, Xenophon, The art of War,..(again), well, too many to name I guess. But I wanted to ask if anyone has read this Dividing the Spoils book? One of my very first posts here on Pothos was a question regarding the Diodochi. Weather we knew more about them and they're individual responsibilities during Alexanders lifetime than what the main Alexander sources tell us. I haven't even scratched the surface on this one. ( I've just recently started the new Landmark Arrian and that's going to take up most of my reading time.) But I do know this book begins on the day of Alexanders death and ends when the final two original successors died. So if anyone has read this book please let me know. And maybe what to expect or what not to expect. Have a good weekend everyone!
All The Best!
Spitamenes
I haven't read this one, although it's been on my Amazon wishlist for a few weeks. I have quite a few books on the early Hellenistic period, though, and will probably re-read them before starting on any others.

But please give us your thoughts once you have read it!

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Re: Dividing The Spoils.

Post by Paralus »

spitamenes wrote: But I wanted to ask if anyone has read this Dividing the Spoils book? One of my very first posts here on Pothos was a question regarding the Diodochi. Weather we knew more about them and they're individual responsibilities during Alexanders lifetime than what the main Alexander sources tell us. I haven't even scratched the surface on this one.
Dr. Waterfields's book looks like a very good general work on the period. I've not read it (but just might buy it).

The only quibble would be his "timeline". Waterfield seems wedded to the "low chronology" except for the campaign across Iran (318-17) which he places under the "high chronology". The dating of that campaign is spot on but he then has Seleukus departing Babylon in 315 when Antigonus is busy with Tyre.

A small quibble (though given that other dating thread....).
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Re: Dividing The Spoils.

Post by spitamenes »

Paralus,
What do you mean by "low chronology" and "high chronology" ? I've noticed quite a few differences in timelines from book to book on this period, but haven't heard of a high or low chronology... just curious.
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Re: Dividing The Spoils.

Post by agesilaos »

In the seventies R M Errington published two papers, 'From Babylon to Triparadeisos' 1970 and 'Diodorus Siculus and the chronology of the Early Diadochoi: 320-311BC' 1977, in which he proposed that the accepted dates for many events in Diodorus' history were a year out, more specifically a year older than they should be. The accepted view is called the 'high chronology', Errington's the 'lower'.

The reason for the mismatch being that Diodorus' source, Hieronymus, used the structure of the campaigning year (starting March?) as the basis for his chronology but Diodorus tries to fit this with his dating by archon (july/aug) and Consuls (jan). He is not very good at doing so.

Recently, A B Bosworth has defended the 'high' chronology, in his book 'The Legacy of Alexander' for instance and Pat Wheatley for one 'The Chronology of the Third Diadoch War 315-311' opts for a blend of the two which is called the 'mixed' chronology. I am pretty sure these are available online along with many other articles discussing the problems. I am a bit worn out by chronology at the moment but Paralus will probably be able to point you to some other papers. :oops:
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Re: Dividing The Spoils.

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spitamenes wrote:Paralus,
What do you mean by "low chronology" and "high chronology" ? I've noticed quite a few differences in timelines from book to book on this period, but haven't heard of a high or low chronology... just curious.
Then I shouldn't confuse matters with the "eclectic" chronology - although Agesilaos has hinted at it as well as Diodorus' chronological difficulties.

The other matter that confuses Diodorus' chronology is related to his source's use of "campaigning years". Often these Diadoch campaigns took place late in the season and over winter (Paraetecene and Gabiene being a classic example). This results in Diodorus losing the odd winter as there is no "winter quarters" marker. He then attempts to match this campainging year to his Archon years and more than once befuddles himself as Agesilaos noted.

For the great part there have been the two chronologies: the "High" wherein the campaign against Egypt by Perdicccas and Triparadeisos is dated to 321; the campaign across Iran (Eumenes and Antigonus) 317/16 (January); Seleucus departs Babylon 316; Antigonus' siege of Tyre commences spring 315 and the battle of Gaza late winter/early spring 312. The low chronology is a year later for all other than Gaza (late autumn 312). In short the "Low" is untenable in certain areas due to hopeless compression of events (the siege of Tyre and attendant events is an example) as well as other chronological pointers. The high also has its issues and neither is totally satisfactory.

Stylianou (in 1993) published a paper which solved some of these issues whilst killing off parts of the "Low". Some ten years later Tom Boiy independently reached similar conclusions on similar and other evidence. Boiy has since published Between High and Low: A Chronology of the Early Hellenistic Period in which he argues for an "eclectic chronology" which combines the two. Already both agree on events between winter 320 - spring 318 and Boiy stiches up other time slots. Another paper, yet to publish (within months), goes further in solving the differences and appeals to me as the best fit.

In essence the eclectic chronology is correct. It's just a matter of how eclectic you want to be!

I have the papers Agesilaos mentioned (and others) should you want to read up. I can also scan Boiy's eclectic timeline if it interests. The unpublished paper I cannot share until it publishes.
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Re: Dividing The Spoils.

Post by Paralus »

One of the oft used supports for the "low" chronolgy, a pasage in the Chronicles of the Successors, is dealt with by Tom Boiy in his 2010 JHS paper Royal and satrapal armies in Babylonia during the Second Diadoch War. The Chronicle of the Successors on the events during the seventh year of Philip Arrhidaeus (=317/316 BC).

This, too, I have should any wish it.
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Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Re: Dividing The Spoils.

Post by spitamenes »

My dog just knocked over a full cup of coffee onto my copy of "dividing the spoils". Good morning to me! :D
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Re: Dividing The Spoils.

Post by Paralus »

The dog clearly has no taste.

If you manage to get into this era there are many others worth the read amongst which...
Dr Pat Wheatley is in the absolute last and final moments (one hopes) of publishing a bio on Demetrius and one should, of course, read Diodorus books 18-20.

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Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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