Linothorax from Pompeii - from RogueClassicism

[marcus]

Here's one from RogueClassicism that I forgot to post the other day.

ATB

[rocktupac]

This is my research!

[marcus]

This is my research!

Yes, I thought so!

ATB

[rocktupac]

This is my research!

Yes, I thought so!

ATB

You'll have to excuse my giddiness. I get too excited sometimes when I see my toils coming to fruition

[Paralus]

As well you should Scott, as well you should. Despite views elsewhere.

[Xenophon]

In the words of John McEnroe; "You cannot be serious!".

This is not evidence of any kind for 'linen armour' of any sort!!!!!!!!! It is a single layer of cloth for a start, so far as I can determine. That linen is strong, as Pliny tells, isn't evidence of anything either !

I have several close-woven herring bone heavy weave Irish Linen Table-cloths that look a lot like that piece - and they are very resistant to knife stabbings and penetrations by sharp-tined forks too, but they are not, and were never intended to be, "armour".

To try and link Pliny's passage with a piece of cloth and call it "evidence of a linothorax" smacks of desperation by 'linophiles'. I strongly advise you to be wary of such pronouncements, since they seriously undermine your case, and there is a danger that no-one will take seriously a person who sees in every piece of linen cloth found 'evidence of a linothorax' !!

[rocktupac]

In the words of John McEnroe; "You cannot be serious!".

This is not evidence of any kind for 'linen armour' of any sort!!!!!!!!! It is a single layer of cloth for a start, so far as I can determine. That linen is strong, as Pliny tells, isn't evidence of anything either !

I have several close-woven herring bone heavy weave Irish Linen Table-cloths that look a lot like that piece - and they are very resistant to knife stabbings and penetrations by sharp-tined forks too, but they are not, and were never intended to be, "armour".

To try and link Pliny's passage with a piece of cloth and call it "evidence of a linothorax" smacks of desperation by 'linophiles'. I strongly advise you to be wary of such pronouncements, since they seriously undermine your case, and there is a danger that no-one will take seriously a person who sees in every piece of linen cloth found 'evidence of a linothorax' !!

Well, the RogueClassicism article was mostly about research that is being carried out and not so much making a case for the existance of linen armor. It is clear linen armor existed in the ancient world as we have over 30 references to linen armor by about two dozen ancient authors. What we don't know is the amount of layers it was composed of. We have a reference from Plutarch that says Alexander wore a 'doubled' or 'folded' linen corselet and I think this is our only reference that states anything about composition; but this reference is, however, not very helpful either in determing that it was made of a single layer or many. But linen armor certainly existed.

[Xenophon]

In the words of John McEnroe; "You cannot be serious!".

This is not evidence of any kind for 'linen armour' of any sort!!!!!!!!! It is a single layer of cloth for a start, so far as I can determine. That linen is strong, as Pliny tells, isn't evidence of anything either !

I have several close-woven herring bone heavy weave Irish Linen Table-cloths that look a lot like that piece - and they are very resistant to knife stabbings and penetrations by sharp-tined forks too, but they are not, and were never intended to be, "armour".

To try and link Pliny's passage with a piece of cloth and call it "evidence of a linothorax" smacks of desperation by 'linophiles'. I strongly advise you to be wary of such pronouncements, since they seriously undermine your case, and there is a danger that no-one will take seriously a person who sees in every piece of linen cloth found 'evidence of a linothorax' !!

Well, the RogueClassicism article was mostly about research that is being carried out and not so much making a case for the existance of linen armor. So why then is this thread called "Linothorax from Pompeii" ???? .....BTW, it should be noted that Pompeii dates to 79 AD, some hundreds of years after the last Tube-and-Yoke corselet disappeared from the battlefield, so this 'evidence' is not very likely to be connected to such a subject.
It is clear linen armor existed in the ancient world as we have over 30 references to linen armor by about two dozen ancient authors. I don't think any serious student of the subject, least of all me, denies such a thing - but there is no evidence that the Hoplites of any Greek city state or of Macedonia (Alexander on one occasion excepted) wore armour of linen, other than, perhaps, those of the Greek cities of Asia Minor, for whom there are some slender threads of evidence....
What we don't know is the amount of layers it was composed of.
What we don't know is whether it was composed of layers at all !! That is merely Peter Connolly's surmise, based on no actual evidence. Nor is there any actual literary, archeological, or iconographic evidence that Greek or Hellenistic corselets were made of linen. The only references in the literature to linen corselets are specifically Persian/Anatolian. What evidence there is for the material used in Greek Tube-and-yoke corselets suggests 'leather' as by far the commonest material.....

We have a reference from Plutarch that says Alexander wore a 'doubled' or 'folded' linen corselet and I think this is our only reference that states anything about composition; but this reference is, however, not very helpful either in determing that it was made of a single layer or many. But linen armor certainly existed.
Plutarch reports that Alexander, on one occasion, wore a PERSIAN linen corselet, captured at Issus, and evidently unusual enough to be commented on ( we are not told details of his armour on other occasions). The Greek you here translate as 'doubled' or 'folded' is more usually translated as 'quilted' - and this is supported by the iconographic evidence in the form of the Alexander mosaic showing Persians wearing what are almost certainly quilted tube-and-yoke corselets, and very probably at Issus.There are also other iconographic examples of Persian Tube-and-Yoke corselets which appear to be quilted. So much for any reference to 'layered' linen....the meagre evidence favours 'quilted' it would appear, not layered, in this sole reference to a 'linen' corselet.......and again, no-one denies that linen corselets existed, but the evidence does suggest they were never commonly worn by Greeks or Macedonians.

[Paralus]

So why then is this thread called "Linothorax from Pompeii" ???? .....

At a guess, possibly because that's the title of the Rogueclassicism thread linked to?!

At a guess...

The Greek you here translate as 'doubled' or 'folded' is more usually translated as 'quilted' ...

The Loeb translation is "breastplate of two-ply linen" which seems closer to θώρακα διπλοῦν λινοῦν (thoraka diploun linoun) than the Penguin. If one were to guess, the later, "thickly quilted linen", is that which is translated to match a concept. Whilst I agree the art favours quilting the passage would seem to say a thorax of "doubled linen" or two ply. Which is not to say that such was not quilted...

Totally unrelated, but I know you'll be interested whilst we're looking at the Greek...

Plutarch, in his Eumenes (14), describes the "foremost Macedonians" of the army halting and grounding arms until Eumenes appeared in his litter. These will, of course, have been the argyraspides. After Eumenes reprised Alexander and waved from his litter they took up their ἀσπίδας and struck them with their σαρίσαις. So it would seem the argyrapsides clashed sarisa upon shield. Hmmm....

[rocktupac]

Totally unrelated, but I know you'll be interested whilst we're looking at the Greek...

Plutarch, in his Eumenes (14), describes the "foremost Macedonians" of the army halting and grounding arms until Eumenes appeared in his litter. These will, of course, have been the argyaspides. After Eumenes reprised Alexander and waved from his litter they took up their ἀσπίδας and struck them with their σαρίσαις. So it would seem the argyrapsides clashed sarisa upon shield. Hmmm....

Ah! Good find, I missed that one. I will add it to my list.