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Alexander in Jerusalem
Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:30 pm
by amyntoros
An interesting variation of Alexander's visit to Jerusalem found on Chabad.org's
Jewish Calendar site.
Today in Jewish History (Thursday, December 18)
Alexander in Jerusalem (313 BCE)
On Kislev 21 of the year 3448 from creation (313 BCE), there occurred the historic meeting between Shimon HaTzaddik and Alexander ('the Great") of Macedonia.
The Samarians, bitter enemies of the Jews, had convinced Alexander that the Jews' refusal to place his image in their Temple was a sign of rebellion against his sovereignty, and that the Holy Temple should be destroyed. The Kohen Gadol ("High Priest") at the time was Shimon HaTzaddik, the last of the "Men of the Great Assembly" who rebuilt the Holy Temple and revitalized Judaism under Ezra. On the 21st of Kislev Alexander marched on Jerusalem at the head of his army; Shimon, garbed in the vestments of the High Priest and accompanied with a delegation of Jewish dignitaries, went forth to greet him. The two groups walked towards each other all night; at the crack of dawn they met. As Alexander beheld the visage of the High Priest, he dismounted his horse and bowed respectfully; to his men he explained that he often had visions of a similar-looking man leading him into battle. Shimon HaTzaddik brought the emperor to the Holy Temple and explained that Judaism prohibits the display of any graven image; he offered to name all the male children born to priests that year "Alexander" as a demonstration of loyalty to the emperor (which is how "Alexander" became a common Jewish name). The Samarians plot was rebuffed, and Kislev 21 was declared a holiday. (Talmud Yoma 69a)
According to an alternative version, this episode occurred on the 25th of Tevet.
Best regards,
Re: Alexander in Jerusalem
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:43 pm
by agesilaos
Total tosh of course, peddaled by Josephus in the Antiquities too; Alexander simply never went near Jerusalem though he did send Andromachos to govern Syria in which position he was murdered by the Samaritans, who were duly punished Curt.IV 8 ix-x. Had Curtius found anything in his sources about Jerusalem I doubt he would have ommitted it as were he Claudian he would be aware of that emperor's friendship with Herod Agrippa, if Vespasianic or Hadrianic then the Jewish wars would have encouraged a mention. Had he heard this tale he would have reported it too no doubt with a suitable tag line ' ...such, at least is what the Jews believe.'
Re: Alexander in Jerusalem
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:12 pm
by marcus
agesilaos wrote:Had Curtius found anything in his sources about Jerusalem I doubt he would have ommitted it as were he Claudian he would be aware of that emperor's friendship with Herod Agrippa, if Vespasianic or Hadrianic then the Jewish wars would have encouraged a mention. Had he heard this tale he would have reported it too no doubt with a suitable tag line ' ...such, at least is what the Jews believe.'
Well, yes; and, in addition, considering the way that Arrian mentions just about every tiny hamlet that Alexander reduced, or was welcomed into, Jerusalem is particularly conspicuous by its absence. I cannot think of any explanation for its absence from the major sources, except that he didn't go there.
ATB
Re: Alexander in Jerusalem
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:13 pm
by Paralus
agesilaos wrote:Total tosh of course, peddaled by Josephus in the Antiquities too; Alexander simply never went near Jerusalem .
My reaction in a nutshell. The target, post Ipsos, was Egypt. On the way down he had a number of issues to keep him busy - not the least the final neutering of Persian naval power and, concommitantly, some Levantine port cities giving him grief. On the way back he had a meeting, of some strategic importance, with a royal army that awaited him in Mesopotamia.
agesilaos wrote:...such, at least is what the Jews believe.
Nice. What the Jews reported indeed: "The Great Alexander found our religion worthy and accorded it the respect due it" type of stuff. The "source tradition" behind this view is likely a contrast with later Macedonian treatment of the Jews. Since the Roman defeat of Antiochus III at Magnesia, Seleucid monarchs had resorted to the time honoured practice of robbing the temples to finance their indemnity (initially) and themselves. None was more seared into the Jewish mind than Antiochus IV Epihanes:
Macc 5.15-17, 20:
Now when this that was done came to the king's car, he [Antiochus IV] thought that Judea had revolted: whereupon removing out of Egypt in a furious mind, he took the city [Jerusalem] by force of arms, and commanded his men of war not to spare such as they met, and to slay such as went up upon the houses. Thus there was killing of young and old, making away of men, women, and children, slaying of virgins and infants. And there were destroyed within the space of three whole days fourscore thousand, whereof forty thousand were slain in the conflict; and no fewer sold than slain. Yet was he [Antiochus IV] not content with this, but presumed to go into the most holy temple of all the world; Menelans, that traitor to the laws, and to his own country, being his guide…
So when Antiochus had carried out of the temple a thousand and eight hundred talents, he departed in all haste unto Antiochia, weening in his pride to make the land navigable, and the sea passable by foot: such was the haughtiness of his mind.
And all that before we get to the subsequent Roman rule and exploitation.
Alexander, by contrast, is the very definition of the angelic and considerate conqueror. Pardon me, but that last is upsetting a breakfast I've yet to have....
Re: Alexander in Jerusalem
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:27 pm
by Semiramis
^^^ In Jewish sources, Alexander was cute. But the real gushing is reserved for Cyrus.
Re: Alexander in Jerusalem
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:55 pm
by Paralus
Semiramis wrote:^^^ In Jewish sources, Alexander was cute. But the real gushing is reserved for Cyrus.
Oh indeed. He who restored them from exile and all due to that sense of justice and respect for an oppressed people. Never a thought given to those piercing Persian eyes, filled with want, gazing through the trans-Euphrates and beholding that which would become the province too far: Egypt. To successfully mount an Egyptian campaign a royal army would need to traverse both the trans-Euphrates and the modern MIddle East. A reasonably contented poulation would aid that.
Ironically enough, the land of Judah was part of that huge region of the trans-Euphrates. Judah was a
medina (or "province") of that region. The region's seat (or overall capital) was actually Babylon. It was to here, eventually, that the "tribute" and taxes such as supplied "the king's table" were remitted. There is no doubt that Judah was paying these taxes in Cyrus's time. Certainly no later than Cambyses.
Re: Alexander in Jerusalem
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:40 pm
by Banzai
agesilaos wrote:Alexander simply never went near Jerusalem
On what grounds do you make this statement?
Re: Alexander in Jerusalem
Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:40 am
by sean_m
Banzai wrote:agesilaos wrote:Alexander simply never went near Jerusalem
On what grounds do you make this statement?
Hi banzai,
agesilaos has gone where he can't answer, but the posts in this thread lay it out pretty well: the sources which are close to Alexander's lifetime and give detailed itineraries do not have him pass through Jerusalem. We also have several other stories where the people telling the story give themselves a connection to the Macedonian: the Romans remembered that they had sent ambassadors and that Alexander was probably going to invade them next ("but he would have failed!" says Livy), and the Pathans tell a story that he sent some of their chiefs back to Macedonia. So while you can't prove a negative, the chances that Alexander visited Jerusalem are not very high (at least in the view of people who really know Arrian and Curtius Rufus ... I am just summarizing after flipping through
Alexander the Great and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army).
Alexander was dead before 313 BCE, the date in the Talmud Yoma.
Re: Alexander in Jerusalem
Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:45 am
by sean_m
Also, I believe that Kislev and Tevet usually fall around November to January, and that does not feel right for either Alexander's march from Cilicia to Gaza or his march from Gaza to Thapsacus on the Euphrates.
Re: Alexander in Jerusalem
Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:25 pm
by Alexias
Also, unless the Jews actually made a move to threaten Alexander, they would not have been his main concern. He was concentrating on securing the Phoenician controlled coast. Though that doesn't mean to say that he didn't send ambassadors to Jerusalem to ensure they didn't intend attacking his rear.
Re: Alexander in Jerusalem
Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:38 pm
by sean_m
Here is Jona Lendering's take on the story in Josephus
http://www.livius.org/sources/content/j ... jerusalem/ Keep in mind that he likes to avoid offending religious and ethnic groups, and is trying to combine the 'biblical studies'/generous way of reading sources and the 'ancient history'/skeptical way.
Re: Alexander in Jerusalem
Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:18 am
by Xenophon
......hardly surprising, considering that Jona is himself Jewish.......
Re: Alexander in Jerusalem
Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:26 am
by sean_m
Xenophon wrote:......hardly surprising, considering that Jona is himself Jewish.......
Oh!
I don't know if I would be as strong as some people in this thread, but the idea of Alexander taking Gaza and deciding to punish an obscure town in the hills for being insufficiently submissive instead of invade Egypt, and of Arrian/Plutarch/Curtius Rufus/Diodorus all ignoring this, does not seem too plausible. Taking Egypt was really important, and time was pressing, because he must have studied the various Persian invasions of Egypt and learned how hard it was to break through the defences at Pelousion.
But I wanted to find Jona's take on this story to give a 'generous reading' on it to set against the skeptical readings in this thread.
Re: Alexander in Jerusalem
Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:20 am
by Alexias
How big an army could the Jews have raised though? It certainly cannot have matched Alexander's 40,000, and with an army sitting at Tyre/Sidon and Parmenion's contingent sitting at Damascus and no hope of any help from the Persians, Jerusalem must have been very worried about their own future, and likely sought terms. They wouldn't have likely risked Jerusalem for the sake of their Persian masters, and would have been glad the Macedonians were dealing with the Phoenicians for them. There may be a grain of truth in the stories about the Jewish contacts with the Macedonians but it is unlikely Alexander himself was directly involved. He would only have been interested in them not bothering him if he left them alone.
Re: Alexander in Jerusalem
Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:07 am
by sean_m
Alexias wrote:There may be a grain of truth in the stories about the Jewish contacts with the Macedonians but it is unlikely Alexander himself was directly involved. He would only have been interested in them not bothering him if he left them alone.
Yes, I have no doubt that everyone Beyond the River (
Ebir-Nari) was frightened that the new king might take away some of their rights, and some hoped to take advantage of the change to help themselves and harm their rival families, sects, and ethnic groups. A new king who didn't even speak Aramaic was a great chance to bring up that dispute about land rights or taxation or the order of precedence in the New Year's parade which the wicked Persian tyrants had decided unfairly/decided in favour of that clan which submitted a whole month later than your clan and brought smaller gifts/... And if someone wants to believe that Alexander sent a Macedonian and a few hundred Greeks and Thracians to Jerusalem to sort things out, I would say " maaybe."