I was musing recently about the oft mentioned tactic used by the phalanx of the raised sarissa ( generally of the middle/rear ranks) to deflect arrows, and wondered if anyone had ever done any research or calculations to determine exactly how effective this use of sarissa would be in battle?
Did it only work as a defence against arrows or would it have provided some form of defence against other 'missile' weapons such as javelins and slingshot?
Has anyone got any references to research on this topic, assuming any exists!?
regards,
Kit.
Phalanx and Arrows
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Phalanx and Arrows
Kit
Forever to seek, to strive, to overcome.
Forever to seek, to strive, to overcome.
Re: Phalanx and Arrows
Hmm, interesting question. I'm not aware that any empirical research has been done to test the effectiveness of such a strategy; but it does make sense to presume that the raised sarissas were successful to a degree. It all enters the murky mathematical world of probability, where (I believe) one cannot say that, just because the cornel wood covered x% of the area of the phalanx, they would stop x% of the missiles. The probability would be x, but I think I'm right in saying that that would have been the probability for each arrow - so in theory 100% of the arrows could get through, just as 100% of the arrows could be blocked.Kit wrote:I was musing recently about the oft mentioned tactic used by the phalanx of the raised sarissa ( generally of the middle/rear ranks) to deflect arrows, and wondered if anyone had ever done any research or calculations to determine exactly how effective this use of sarissa would be in battle?
Did it only work as a defence against arrows or would it have provided some form of defence against other 'missile' weapons such as javelins and slingshot?
Has anyone got any references to research on this topic, assuming any exists!?
regards,
Kit.
The whole situation changes with larger missiles, because the surface area would be different from that of the arrows ... then again, the weight would be different, which also has to be entered into the equation of whether the cornel wood would actually stop the missile from falling.
My head hurts!
ATB
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jasonxx
Kit Hi
Ive put a great deal of reading into the whole Concept of Archers and Bowmen. In particully with relation to the Persian use of Archers against Alexander.
I for one am not particullay convinced the Persians esed them as the Sources say and if they did it has to be said they were used very badly.We must understand Alexanders Cavalry and Infantry were not the tin plated Medievil Knights.
And I for onr believe had the Persians used Archers in an efficient manner believe that would be the only Realistic way to hold or even Stop the Macedonian war machine. I do beliive consontrated Archers would have cut Alexanders cavalry to pieces and I cant see hor Sarrissas offer any kind of Defence against Arrow Volleys.
Macedonian Shields were relatively smaller than the traditional Hoplite Shiel and no where near as effective against missiles as the Roman Shields. So I would argue the Archers were misrepresented or very dadly used . I guess its good for Greek propaganda that Alexander fought A million Persians Thousand or Archers. etc etc.
regards
Kenny
Ive put a great deal of reading into the whole Concept of Archers and Bowmen. In particully with relation to the Persian use of Archers against Alexander.
I for one am not particullay convinced the Persians esed them as the Sources say and if they did it has to be said they were used very badly.We must understand Alexanders Cavalry and Infantry were not the tin plated Medievil Knights.
And I for onr believe had the Persians used Archers in an efficient manner believe that would be the only Realistic way to hold or even Stop the Macedonian war machine. I do beliive consontrated Archers would have cut Alexanders cavalry to pieces and I cant see hor Sarrissas offer any kind of Defence against Arrow Volleys.
Macedonian Shields were relatively smaller than the traditional Hoplite Shiel and no where near as effective against missiles as the Roman Shields. So I would argue the Archers were misrepresented or very dadly used . I guess its good for Greek propaganda that Alexander fought A million Persians Thousand or Archers. etc etc.
regards
Kenny
I don't see it as an all too effective defence. It will, going with Marcus' probability, have stopped some; others (a majotiy?) will merely have been deflected. It then becomes a matter of what momentum has been stymied and whether other sarissae then deflected them once more. Javelins, I think, will have been a more difficult missile - ditto slingers - to deal with.
My head hurts too.
It was certainly not something the sarissa was designed to do. It was, I'd think, a by product of the fact that the sarissae of the eleven rows behind the front five had to be parked upwards, out of harm's way.
In the end a reading of both hoplite and phalangite battle in the sources, both of which were vulnerable to this, generally shows that the phalanx, once it was in the "firing line", closed ranks and "fell upon" their opposites. By which I take it to mean "charged" so as to limit the time it was so exposed.
Arrian's description of Gaugamela comes to mind where Alexander with the Comapanion Cavalry and all the heavy infantry near him charge the Persian line and "drove his wedge in". Also the Silver Shields at both Paraetecene and Gabiene where they "in close order, fell heavily upon" the opposing phalanx.
You still would not find me there.
My head hurts too.
It was certainly not something the sarissa was designed to do. It was, I'd think, a by product of the fact that the sarissae of the eleven rows behind the front five had to be parked upwards, out of harm's way.
In the end a reading of both hoplite and phalangite battle in the sources, both of which were vulnerable to this, generally shows that the phalanx, once it was in the "firing line", closed ranks and "fell upon" their opposites. By which I take it to mean "charged" so as to limit the time it was so exposed.
Arrian's description of Gaugamela comes to mind where Alexander with the Comapanion Cavalry and all the heavy infantry near him charge the Persian line and "drove his wedge in". Also the Silver Shields at both Paraetecene and Gabiene where they "in close order, fell heavily upon" the opposing phalanx.
You still would not find me there.
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.
Academia.edu
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.
Academia.edu
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jasonxx
Paralus with reference to the famous cavarly Charges. we know the effectiveness of this tactic used by Alexander in decisive situations.
It was basically the thing that almost nearly broke the Persians with its intent to take out the head Darius. I think we can assume that it was Alexanders intent to do this or get behing the Persian lines and roll them up. I guess hind sight is indeed a wonderful thing and there agin is it.
Darius and the Persian Generals must have learned something about Phalangite warfare learning from his predessors. Ok he may not have thouroughly understood the Macedonian cavalry. But even Xerxes worked it out to finish the 300 Spartans with archers.
Gaugamella Darius as I said showed real incompetence and or the Archers were not there in the huge numbers as the Sources say. Look what the English Archers Dis against tin Coated French Cavalry at Agincourt. And its very Clear the eastern Compound Recurve Bows had More power and range than the English Long Bow.
kenny
It was basically the thing that almost nearly broke the Persians with its intent to take out the head Darius. I think we can assume that it was Alexanders intent to do this or get behing the Persian lines and roll them up. I guess hind sight is indeed a wonderful thing and there agin is it.
Darius and the Persian Generals must have learned something about Phalangite warfare learning from his predessors. Ok he may not have thouroughly understood the Macedonian cavalry. But even Xerxes worked it out to finish the 300 Spartans with archers.
Gaugamella Darius as I said showed real incompetence and or the Archers were not there in the huge numbers as the Sources say. Look what the English Archers Dis against tin Coated French Cavalry at Agincourt. And its very Clear the eastern Compound Recurve Bows had More power and range than the English Long Bow.
kenny
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jasonxx
Acording to Wikepedia and Ancient Sources darius supposedly placed the Median Archers to his front and in the Middle. If so did the just sit and Watch whilst Alexanders Wedge came Straight for Darius.
Even if thE Archers Bottled it and ran a couple of volleys would have made a big dint in Alexanders Charge. Once again i argue they were even there.
kenny
Even if thE Archers Bottled it and ran a couple of volleys would have made a big dint in Alexanders Charge. Once again i argue they were even there.
kenny
Oh, I think they were there Kenny. The Greek sources do not interest themselves terribly in the doings of slingers and archers preferring the deeds of generals, kings, their cavalry (in the case of Alexander) and their heavy infantry.
The Macedonian casualty figures for both Issus and Gaugamela are as believable as the thoroughly incontinent Persian numbers. It will not have advanced Callisthenes' standing to record the real number of Macedonian dead in what had to have been a bloodbath on the Macedonian left and centre left.
As well, it wasn't just the Macedonian cavalry that broke these Persian lines. The descrition of Gaugamela is clear: "with all the heavy infantry in this sector Alexander drove his wege" into the Persian lines. That will mean that Alexander straightened his advance for the charge - he will not have crossed his own infantry lines - and that it was made in concert with the hypaspists and Coenus' brigade who were in contact with the hypaspists. It also was likely not a great distance, in the end, that this charge covered.
I believe the object was to rupture the line, drive forward and then left to roll up the Persian left of centre and thus enclose Darius. This is what he was doing at Issus and what he succeeded in doing to the Indians at Jhelum. Darius escaped it and, the close and desperate mixed cavalry and infantry action that Arrian describes, was the result of the Persian and Indian forces attempting to exit and save themselves.
The Macedonian casualty figures for both Issus and Gaugamela are as believable as the thoroughly incontinent Persian numbers. It will not have advanced Callisthenes' standing to record the real number of Macedonian dead in what had to have been a bloodbath on the Macedonian left and centre left.
As well, it wasn't just the Macedonian cavalry that broke these Persian lines. The descrition of Gaugamela is clear: "with all the heavy infantry in this sector Alexander drove his wege" into the Persian lines. That will mean that Alexander straightened his advance for the charge - he will not have crossed his own infantry lines - and that it was made in concert with the hypaspists and Coenus' brigade who were in contact with the hypaspists. It also was likely not a great distance, in the end, that this charge covered.
I believe the object was to rupture the line, drive forward and then left to roll up the Persian left of centre and thus enclose Darius. This is what he was doing at Issus and what he succeeded in doing to the Indians at Jhelum. Darius escaped it and, the close and desperate mixed cavalry and infantry action that Arrian describes, was the result of the Persian and Indian forces attempting to exit and save themselves.
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.
Academia.edu
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.
Academia.edu
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jasonxx
Ok Michael
Maybe the archers were there but its gotta be accepted very badly used.
I have an interest with Bows as I make long Bows for a hobby. I cant make a real Yew Bow as it seems to be impossible to get so use Lemon Wood Mixes.
Recently there was a study done with the actual effectiveness the LOng Bows actually had against Armoured French horsemen. It became apparent that the Bodding Arrow tips couldnt penetrate the Armour so the arguement is that the Volleys hit hurt and Wounded the horses causing dismounts etc the. The Normal English infantry basically moved in and butchered the hapless tin laden dismounted french.
But what was apparent was the devastaion consontrated volleys created.
With reference to Archery Volleys just look at the Stone movie. In reality how much of those volleys could the Macedonians realistically Sustain. I guess were all aware of the Greek dismisives of Long range archers and how they thought it Cowardly.
Ill maybe agree Michael that they were actually there but wouldnt bet against Greek Literal fabrication on that score.All it took in the mallian town was a Stray arrow to call it curtains nearly. Imaging a Alexander Charging head on under a clowd of Arrows.
Kenny
Maybe the archers were there but its gotta be accepted very badly used.
I have an interest with Bows as I make long Bows for a hobby. I cant make a real Yew Bow as it seems to be impossible to get so use Lemon Wood Mixes.
Recently there was a study done with the actual effectiveness the LOng Bows actually had against Armoured French horsemen. It became apparent that the Bodding Arrow tips couldnt penetrate the Armour so the arguement is that the Volleys hit hurt and Wounded the horses causing dismounts etc the. The Normal English infantry basically moved in and butchered the hapless tin laden dismounted french.
But what was apparent was the devastaion consontrated volleys created.
With reference to Archery Volleys just look at the Stone movie. In reality how much of those volleys could the Macedonians realistically Sustain. I guess were all aware of the Greek dismisives of Long range archers and how they thought it Cowardly.
Ill maybe agree Michael that they were actually there but wouldnt bet against Greek Literal fabrication on that score.All it took in the mallian town was a Stray arrow to call it curtains nearly. Imaging a Alexander Charging head on under a clowd of Arrows.
Kenny
In the battlefield engagements I don't think the archers were used beyond the initial vollies because once the armies were locked in battle then any arrows shot into the air would not distinguish between Persian or Macedonian. If I'm interpreting things correctly the archers fired when the enemy was at optimum distance and then withdrew behind the lines - which would mean that by the time Alexander wheeled around to attack they would be out of the action. The way Victor Davis Hanson puts it in The Western Way of War: Infantry Battle in Classical Greece is:jasonxx wrote:Ill maybe agree Michael that they were actually there but wouldnt bet against Greek Literal fabrication on that score.All it took in the mallian town was a Stray arrow to call it curtains nearly. Imaging a Alexander Charging head on under a clowd of Arrows.
As Michael said, it would have been a "charge" by the foot soldiers thus limiting the time they were exposed.Even well-trained enemy archers and slingers were seldom a threat if the hoplites stayed on level ground and could be brought to close quarters quickly. When infantrymen lumbered across the last 150 yards of no-man's-land and came into range of the ancient arrows and other hand propelled missiles, which could wound their arms, legs, faces, and necks, and at closer ranges penetrate their body armor, the "window of vulnerability" lasted not more than a minute. These airborne attacks, far from turning aside the onset of heavily armored men, most likely served to incite their anger and to guarantee a furious collision of leveled spears.
Were any archers stationed in front of cavalry when the lines were first drawn up?
Best regards,
Amyntoros
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