Porthonians
I have been reading the sources and the so called respect Alexander had for darius and the Propogandist Attitude Alexander would treat Darius with due respect.
To be honest I gotta say in his own Head Alexander couldnt have respected Drius at all. Firstly Darius was put on the throne by the Eunuck and secondlay Darius fled on 2 occasions to save his own skin. Now for Alexander to respect darius goes against Alexanders fundamental beliefs in heroes etc.
I have no doubt Alexander wanted to kill Darius on the battle fielf for the ultimate trophy Achilles Hector. But Darius was no Hector. Wouldnt it leave a bitter taste in Alexanders mouth to treat Darius as a subject worthy to be around I feel not.
I have mentioned before and it goes with the theory about genius mamikng there own luck. I dont see it as coincidence that Alexander arrived to late to save Darius from Bessus sword. And to make it better for Alexander the perfect Propoganda he had a culprit for killing Dsarius.
The apologists would argue that Alexander had nothing to do with darius been killed but id give even odds that he did.
Kenny
Darius Contemp or Respect?
Moderator: pothos moderators
Hail ya'all,
Hi Kenny,
I think that as Marcus is saying, Alexander wanted to "slip" into the role of Great King with as much naturalness as posible, so that the people would feel that he was the "rightful" heir- and Bessus had proclaimed himself Artaxerxes IV- and worn the upright Tiara- he was a heavy weight and Alexander would need to get him out of the way. Although Spitamenes was perhaps the one that gave, as you say, Alexander the "biggest headache" of his life.
The army who got annihialated near Samarkand are proof of this.
Did Alexander feel contempt or did he feel respect for his "adversary" Darius?
Well, after Darius' strategic games at Issus, Alexander must have wondered, there on the plains of Gaugamela if the great king had any aces still left up his sleeve- but in the end in true Homeric style- "the guy who legs it- is a coward no matter which way you look at it" and I am sure that that is what Alexander thought. Glory was obtained fighting, not running scared. I am sure that I read recently in a post of Jan's that Sisygambis had turned her back on her son. Be curious to know where the detail is found.
It is easily believable,I mean Alexander did more to get a horse back than Darius did to get his whole family!!!
Best regards,
Dean
Hi Kenny,
I think that as Marcus is saying, Alexander wanted to "slip" into the role of Great King with as much naturalness as posible, so that the people would feel that he was the "rightful" heir- and Bessus had proclaimed himself Artaxerxes IV- and worn the upright Tiara- he was a heavy weight and Alexander would need to get him out of the way. Although Spitamenes was perhaps the one that gave, as you say, Alexander the "biggest headache" of his life.
The army who got annihialated near Samarkand are proof of this.
Did Alexander feel contempt or did he feel respect for his "adversary" Darius?
Well, after Darius' strategic games at Issus, Alexander must have wondered, there on the plains of Gaugamela if the great king had any aces still left up his sleeve- but in the end in true Homeric style- "the guy who legs it- is a coward no matter which way you look at it" and I am sure that that is what Alexander thought. Glory was obtained fighting, not running scared. I am sure that I read recently in a post of Jan's that Sisygambis had turned her back on her son. Be curious to know where the detail is found.
It is easily believable,I mean Alexander did more to get a horse back than Darius did to get his whole family!!!
Best regards,
Dean
carpe diem
Maddog Hail
As you state Alexander did more to get back his horse than Darius did to get his family back. I doubt Alexander thought Darius had any cards up his sleeve following Gaugamela.
Irrespective of Bessus wearing the Persian crown. It gave Alexander the legitimate right to continue his so called conquest of Persia chasing Bessus it would I guess bring Alexander a few influentual Persians I mean he was not only Persuing the Greek cause but also A Persian cause chasing the baddy who killed there king and he didnt have to show any respect at all for Bessus he could kill him as he willed. He even turned Bessus execution into a master stroke of Propoganda. He let the Persians try and execute him. Which echoes Thebes Alexander didnt actually order Thebes bestroyed he kinda cleverly let the Theban enemies decide its fate.
Alexander was indeed a military Genius can I say he was equally astute and politically a clever he knew how to play the crowd as we say and he played them like Kasparof.Which echoes the Beas mutiny. Maybe there was a mutiny but I still think the Mutiny helped Alexander to turn back without looking as if hed turned round. Like making the Matineers think it was there idea all the Time. As Paralus said im sure Alexander had had enough of India and it wouldnt do if he said Ive had it with this crap lets turn back. Pretend to sulk and Bobs your uncle.
Kenny
As you state Alexander did more to get back his horse than Darius did to get his family back. I doubt Alexander thought Darius had any cards up his sleeve following Gaugamela.
Irrespective of Bessus wearing the Persian crown. It gave Alexander the legitimate right to continue his so called conquest of Persia chasing Bessus it would I guess bring Alexander a few influentual Persians I mean he was not only Persuing the Greek cause but also A Persian cause chasing the baddy who killed there king and he didnt have to show any respect at all for Bessus he could kill him as he willed. He even turned Bessus execution into a master stroke of Propoganda. He let the Persians try and execute him. Which echoes Thebes Alexander didnt actually order Thebes bestroyed he kinda cleverly let the Theban enemies decide its fate.
Alexander was indeed a military Genius can I say he was equally astute and politically a clever he knew how to play the crowd as we say and he played them like Kasparof.Which echoes the Beas mutiny. Maybe there was a mutiny but I still think the Mutiny helped Alexander to turn back without looking as if hed turned round. Like making the Matineers think it was there idea all the Time. As Paralus said im sure Alexander had had enough of India and it wouldnt do if he said Ive had it with this crap lets turn back. Pretend to sulk and Bobs your uncle.
Kenny
Only a King should kill a King
Kenny, Several things. First of all, Alexander wanted to kill Darius himself, not have someone else do it for him. He felt the need to kill King Darius personally as tradition meant that only a king could kill another king. He did not plan that someone else should do it for him at all. Then after living with King Darius's mother and wife for so long, Alexander obviously considered their feelings about King Darius so that at the end game, he was actually trying to save him from his own men. He arrived too late.
But Alexander was clearly determined that he be the one to kill King Darius!
(P.S. I saw your pal Colin Farrell on t.v. last night promoting his new movie, Miami Vice, and early this morning again on the Today Show.) He made me think of you, Kennyxx.
Hi Jan
We can agree to disagree on this matter. As for Collin Farrel. Im looking foreward and giving the guy a last chance with Miami Vice. The Guys gotta have one good movie in him.
I cant see why Farrel makes you think of me. Collin talks with a deep Irish accent mine is plain Yorkshire.
We Yorkshire boys sound a lot like Sean Bean.
Kenny
We can agree to disagree on this matter. As for Collin Farrel. Im looking foreward and giving the guy a last chance with Miami Vice. The Guys gotta have one good movie in him.
I cant see why Farrel makes you think of me. Collin talks with a deep Irish accent mine is plain Yorkshire.
We Yorkshire boys sound a lot like Sean Bean.
Kenny
Hi there,
I believe that one will very seldom find in a poll the answer that perfectly fits one's own answer, so I went for the second option "He might have known and used the situation". It is vague enough as to encompass almost everything that you could imagine.
I totally agree that Alexander was not only a military genius, but also extremely clever in political terms, and so he used the situation to promote his goals: increase the good will of Sysigambis (sp?), attract important Persian noblemen to his camp (Oxathres, Artabazus), being accepted as the "natural" successor as Great King by the Persian thus decreasing the support of Bessus, producing a good reason for the soldiers to continue the campaign, etc. As Philip before him, Alexander knew that the best strategic action is the one that can be supported by the largest possible number of arguments (diplomatic, military, propagandistic, political), and hence it is not at all surprising that he sort of "let things happen" without getting his hands dirty (as Kenny mentioned, it resembles the Theban affaire).
Clearly he knew about it. He always gathered intelligence about the next target before getting there, and the Persians left behind after Dareios' kidnapping would have been good sources. But even then, knowing the risk Dareios was at, he is supposed to have "waited for a few days" before resuming the pursuit (allegedly, to rest his troops after a certainly tiring march, though I don't remember other occasions when he delayed the achievement of a strategic goal because of tiredness). This is at least suspicious.
Certainly -as was argued in other threads- Dareios' death was welcomed by Alexander, as he would have had a difficult decision to make had he caught Dareios alive: should you kill him and get "bad vibes" from the Persians? or keep him alive in an isolated spot as a minor nobleman and risk a revolt from loyal Persians? His death eliminated this dilemma. So Alexander had the motive (as detectives would say), as well as the psychological control of the situation (pursuit of Bessus) that in the end led to the best outcome that Alexander could imagine: Dareios dead, Bessus guilty, himself "the avenger".
At the end of the day, as said by Kenny, he was a Realpolitik master, able to further his goals while keeping everyone happy about it. And so I wouldn't be surprised if he turned this event into another victory simply by letting Bessus "dig his own grave", getting nervous and finally killing Dareios.
Just my thoughts, though.
All the best,
Alejandro
I believe that one will very seldom find in a poll the answer that perfectly fits one's own answer, so I went for the second option "He might have known and used the situation". It is vague enough as to encompass almost everything that you could imagine.
I totally agree that Alexander was not only a military genius, but also extremely clever in political terms, and so he used the situation to promote his goals: increase the good will of Sysigambis (sp?), attract important Persian noblemen to his camp (Oxathres, Artabazus), being accepted as the "natural" successor as Great King by the Persian thus decreasing the support of Bessus, producing a good reason for the soldiers to continue the campaign, etc. As Philip before him, Alexander knew that the best strategic action is the one that can be supported by the largest possible number of arguments (diplomatic, military, propagandistic, political), and hence it is not at all surprising that he sort of "let things happen" without getting his hands dirty (as Kenny mentioned, it resembles the Theban affaire).
Clearly he knew about it. He always gathered intelligence about the next target before getting there, and the Persians left behind after Dareios' kidnapping would have been good sources. But even then, knowing the risk Dareios was at, he is supposed to have "waited for a few days" before resuming the pursuit (allegedly, to rest his troops after a certainly tiring march, though I don't remember other occasions when he delayed the achievement of a strategic goal because of tiredness). This is at least suspicious.
Certainly -as was argued in other threads- Dareios' death was welcomed by Alexander, as he would have had a difficult decision to make had he caught Dareios alive: should you kill him and get "bad vibes" from the Persians? or keep him alive in an isolated spot as a minor nobleman and risk a revolt from loyal Persians? His death eliminated this dilemma. So Alexander had the motive (as detectives would say), as well as the psychological control of the situation (pursuit of Bessus) that in the end led to the best outcome that Alexander could imagine: Dareios dead, Bessus guilty, himself "the avenger".
At the end of the day, as said by Kenny, he was a Realpolitik master, able to further his goals while keeping everyone happy about it. And so I wouldn't be surprised if he turned this event into another victory simply by letting Bessus "dig his own grave", getting nervous and finally killing Dareios.
Just my thoughts, though.
All the best,
Alejandro
Yorkshire pud's
Kenny said,
I am originally from Churwell, Morley- near Leeds- in the heart of Yorkshire.
I know it sounds uncool, but if there is one thing I miss it's Yorkshire puddings on Sunday.
Actually I miss fish'n chips from Harry Ramsden's too but that is another story.
Well- nice to hear that you are from my neighbourhood and yes we do speak a lot like Sean Bean!!! I used to have a very broad Yorkshire accent kinda like someone out of Emmerdale but now less so.
All the best,
Dean
Hi Kenny,I cant see why Farrel makes you think of me. Collin talks with a deep Irish accent mine is plain Yorkshire.
We Yorkshire boys sound a lot like Sean Bean.
I am originally from Churwell, Morley- near Leeds- in the heart of Yorkshire.
I know it sounds uncool, but if there is one thing I miss it's Yorkshire puddings on Sunday.
Actually I miss fish'n chips from Harry Ramsden's too but that is another story.
Well- nice to hear that you are from my neighbourhood and yes we do speak a lot like Sean Bean!!! I used to have a very broad Yorkshire accent kinda like someone out of Emmerdale but now less so.
All the best,
Dean
carpe diem
I find little to disagree with in the the thinking behinfd the post. I believe that Darius was in a very delicate position with his nobility well before Gaugamela (an idea well argued by Badian) and that the "conspiracy" that eventually did him in was alive before that battle. It is likely that Alexander had some wind of it.alejandro wrote: But even then, knowing the risk Dareios was at, he is supposed to have "waited for a few days" before resuming the pursuit (allegedly, to rest his troops after a certainly tiring march, though I don't remember other occasions when he delayed the achievement of a strategic goal because of tiredness). This is at least suspicious.
Certainly -as was argued in other threads- Dareios' death was welcomed by Alexander, as he would have had a difficult decision to make had he caught Dareios alive: should you kill him and get "bad vibes" from the Persians? or keep him alive in an isolated spot as a minor nobleman and risk a revolt from loyal Persians? His death eliminated this dilemma.
Alexander definitely wanted Darius dead, preferably by his xyston or sword on the field of battle. The king needed to be "legitimately" removed from the board so as there was no titular head around which to rally dissafected Iranian nobility. This is why the advice given to Alexander (as related by the - in my view - later inserted anti-Parmenio tradition) by Parmenio to accept Darius' offer ( I would if I were Parmenio) was patently ludicrous and not what would be offered by the most experience soldier and general in the army.
The descriptions we have of the forced pursuit of Darius indicate that it took a severe toll the pursuers. In that respect I think the rest was a needed one. There is something about three days and Greek sources. That being said, it may well be that Alexander did not rest three days but dallied a little on reports of the king bieng a prisoner and in danger of being murdered. that may be over-reading the situation though.
On balance, though, I feel that had Alexander captured Darius, he'd have loved nothing more than some spirited defence of the king to facilitate his death in battle.
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.
Academia.edu
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.
Academia.edu
Re: Yorkshire pud's
Kenny and Dean,
Anyway, as I know that at least one other Pothosian is from the right part of the country - a transplanted Doncaster-ite - the Yorkshire domination of the Globe continues apace ...
ATB
My uncle lives in Hull - he's not a Yorkshireman by birth, but married a Yorkshirewomen and became more Yorkshire than she is! (He is Nottinghamshire by birth, so it is at least the 'right' side of the Watford Gap). Myself, I was born in Matlock, Derbyshire - as my uncle and aunt keep telling me, Derbyshire *really* belongs to Yorkshire, so I am at least an honorary Yorkshireman. Don't talk like it, though - pure Home Counties!dean wrote: Well- nice to hear that you are from my neighbourhood and yes we do speak a lot like Sean Bean!!! I used to have a very broad Yorkshire accent kinda like someone out of Emmerdale but now less so.
Anyway, as I know that at least one other Pothosian is from the right part of the country - a transplanted Doncaster-ite - the Yorkshire domination of the Globe continues apace ...
ATB
off The Alexander track about Yorkshire. I often see the hollywood blockbusters and everytime theres an English Man playing a part they are all toffee nosed and talk with a posh accent.
I have talked with a lot of Americans who seem to like the English Accents when Asked to describe the Yorkshire Accent. Sean Bean was the only one they might know but even Sean Beans Accent isnt muck like the York or Barnsley accent.
We dont get any Yorkshire news readers iether I guess our lingo is a little un proper.
Regards
Kenny
I have talked with a lot of Americans who seem to like the English Accents when Asked to describe the Yorkshire Accent. Sean Bean was the only one they might know but even Sean Beans Accent isnt muck like the York or Barnsley accent.
We dont get any Yorkshire news readers iether I guess our lingo is a little un proper.
Regards
Kenny
Colin Farrel's Irish accent
Yes, Kenny, I did not mean that you and he sound alike but that I just recalled when you had thought he had written a post here, and that is all. Colin does have a strong accent, and I can imagine yours as being a lot different from that. By the way Ramsey is back on t.v. with his Hell's Kitchen show, and is going strong on Fox network.As for the question about Alexander and Darius, I believe that Alexander never likes to be upstaged when it comes to killing people or lions even. When it is his job to do, nobody should ever do it for him.
Not even male ego. Just the perogative of being King! Didn't he whip one young boy for doing that to him, which brought about a plot against his life even?
amyntoros wrote:This is one of those rare occasions when I can be brief!alejandro wrote:Just my thoughts, though.
Best regards
Well Amyntoros,
Your posts are always so well researched and composed that it is an honour for me having "pre-empted"
you and written your very thoughts!All the best,
Alejandro