soldier's life

[lucian]

Hey all,I was reading a couple of pages of Anderson's Military theory and practice in the age of Xenophon, and I came across some questions.One of the things he mentions is that camp sites for Spartans, and Athenian soldiers more often than not were made under temporary provisions, basically brushes, wood, and whatever they could find to build huts. Most often these soldiers slept outside, and only carried "bedding" with them. First of all, what constitutes "bedding"? I mean, maybe it's all Hollywood, but whenever we see Greek tents, there are all kinds of things there, tables, lamps, an actual bed, in my opinion nothing easy to carry. So what is this bedding? a sleeping bag?? And to what extent can I make a generalization that the Macedonians might have done the same? He also mentions that at Chaeronia, the Athenian soldiers requested that Phillip return their bedding and cloaks. Which suggests that they either didn't care about their tents (unlikely) or they didn't have any. I KNOW Alexander had a tent somewhere!! With all the careful detail of the Macedonian movements, to maintain themselves "light" it almost seems to me like other armies were much "lighter". Another thing is that Xenophon suggests that in his life time there were no weapons training. Sure, there are spear, and long distance range weapons, calvary and so forth, but not hand to hand fighting. The term "fencing" seems to pop up, and the interesting thing is, that he says that there was no need, when push comes to shuve, you'd know what to do. IS HE FOR REAL? But the thing is, now I'm not so sure about Alexander's army. There is a lot of concentration on how Alexander himself trained with a chariot, running, and other physical things, but I've never heard of him being a superb "swordsman" just a superb rider. If anyone wants to shed any light on this, and if possible suggest a book that focuses more on the Macedonian way of life, let me know.Thanks!!!!bye bye

[abm]

Hi Lucian,I cannot really give a good answer off the top of my head, but might find what you're looking for in Paul Faure, La vie quotidienne des arm+¬es dGÇÖAlexandre, Paris : Hachette 1982, and in D.W. Engels, Alexander the Great and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army.regards,abm

[amyntoros]

I suspect that after Alexander had defeated Darius, traveling GÇ£lightGÇ¥ was something only done by the Macedonians when part of the army was sent on lightening fast campaigns. Athenaeus reports that Perdiccas and Craterus GÇ£always had in their trainGÇ¥ piles of goatskins that would fill a stadium, which they used to build a gymnasium in the camp, and that they had a long train of animals following them that carried sand to be used when wrestling. Aelian says it was leather, a stade in length, that they brought with them, and that Leonnatus and Menelaus travelled with hunting nets a hundred stades long. With all this, it seems unlikely that the regular soldiers lived in extremely frugal conditions while on the march. Knowing what we do about their predilection for speaking up when they were unhappy, I think they would seriously have complained if their generals were traveling in luxury while they had virtually nothing. Look at how Alexander first destroyed his own carts of booty before asking his men to do the same.The army certainly slept in tents - there are at least two occasions when Alexander had the leather tent covers sewn together and filled with straw so he could float the army across a river - at the Ister and against the Scythians, where Curtius says some 12,000 such GÇ£boatsGÇ¥ were put together within three days. And blankets, I imagine, is what is meant by bedding.As for sword-fighting, IGÇÖm certainly no military expert, but the swords were designed for hacking and slashing. How much GÇ£trainingGÇ¥ would be necessary for one to know how to hack off a manGÇÖs arm, or otherwise? I think thatGÇÖs probably what Xenophon meant when he said youGÇÖd know what to do when push came to shove.Best regards,Linda Ann

[ancientlibrary]

I've never seen "La vie quotidienne." Thanks for the tip!

[Kit]

Hi Amyntoros,I was just in the process of replying to your post when my power pack expired! Got a new one now, so here goes...Plutarch, referring to Alexander, mentions in his prelude to Gaugamela that-"His sword, which was a gift from the King of Citium, was a marvel of lightness and tempering, and he had trained himself to use this as his principal weapon in hand-to-hand fighting."So, I suppose we could infer from that, that whilst there may not have been any structured training (he trained himself), Alexander at least wanted some practice/training before rushing off into battle with it? You are correct in that the Kopis was a slashing sword, but I would still imagine that some (basic at least) training must have existed to get the best out of it. Although on the job experience probably played a big part too!? As regards the Army carrying tents etc. I wonder whether this was one of the differences between the Macedonian and Greek/Mercenary forces. Phillip had created the Macedonian army to operate for extended periods on campaign. Most Greek militia armies would have operated for limited periods relatively close to home, in most circumstances. Maybe this accounts for the difference in sleeping arrangements (tents v bedroll)?Just some thoughts.regards,Kit.

[amyntoros]

Hi Kit,You're right about Alexander's training of himself with the sword, although I can't picture how anyone would have gone about it, short of slashing at anything and everything! I agree about the tents as well, although I would say that the army's use of tents in Alexander's time differed even from that of Philip's. Yes, Philip had a professional army, often away on long campaigns, but Alexander's campaign in Asia lasted ten years and more! The army quite literally carried their homes with them for over a decade. Even when they remained in various cities for a period of time, there's still mention in the histories of the "camp" of the army, and that doesn't surprise me. We know that the officers took over city houses, as did visiting entertainers and dignitaries, but if all the rank and file were also billeted in the same way then an entire city of civilians would have been displaced. Looking at it this way, I can't imagine Alexander's army *not* having tents. :-)Best regards,Amyntoros

[lucian]

Amyntoros has a good point, Alexander was gone for far too long, and there is no way that he would have gone on without tents, whereas, the local armies in Greece could have done without it, while fighting near home. Where is there any mention of the soldiers taking local homes? I'm aware that at times even in modern cases, soldiers stay at the houses of civilians, but I never read of Alexander's soldiers doing such, can you tell me?Also, did Alexander stay at the palace of Persepolis? it's an odd thing to have to camp outside your own acquired property. I'm aware that he "might" have burnt it, but why did he camp outside of it???As for the training I came across a word that escapes me right now, but it's in the same book, starts with a "p" and apparently it was a late form of "fencing" done for footsoldiers, in order to alleviate some of the problems of "lack of sword training" I'll find out what it is again. Ican't imagine that they didn't train with swords, in some fashion. I mean, the Romans weren't far along, and they eventually created gladiators, who were apparently really good with swords, I can't see them just pulling that out of their asses. peaceLuc

[amyntoros]

The references to soldiers living in city houses arenGÇÖt immediately obvious. One can be found in PlutarchGÇÖs Life of Eumenes, where there is a complaint that GÇ£the quarters that had been taken up for Eumenes, Hephaestion assigned to Euius, the flute-player.GÇ¥ Obviously Eumenes would have traveled with his own tent, so this passage can be interpreted as meaning that the quarters referred to was a house in the city. Curtius 6.11.3 tells how PhilotasGÇÖs wagons GÇ¥laden with gold and silver had stood in whole sections of the city, and that not one of his fellow-soldiers was admitted even to the neighborhood of his lodgingGǪGÇ¥ IGÇÖm sure you could go through the histories with a fine tooth-comb and find more, but note that most of them refer to officers rather than regular soldiers. However, there obviously were occasions when the rank and file also got to sleep where they liked. After Thebes was defeated, a Thracian took lodgings in the house of Timoclea. IGÇÖm betting that the same thing happened at Tyre and other similarly defeated cities.As for Persepolis, I also would have expected Alexander to sleep in one of the palaces, but I think there might have been so much devastation that it wasnGÇÖt feasible. Between Alexander and the army, everything of value had been removed as booty, and this would have included all the furniture which was surely elaborately and expensively decorated. If property wasnGÇÖt seized, it was most likely destroyed for the ornaments. In these circumstances all the rooms in the palaces would have been completely empty. I suppose that Alexander could have moved his own furniture back into the palace, but this would have seemed a little strange, donGÇÖt you think?I bow to your superior knowledge on sword-fighting! I confess to knowing little about combat skills, but IGÇÖll keep an eye out for any references to training with a sword.Best regards,Amyntoros